IT MUST be petition season in Blackpool at the moment, with over three thousand signatures handed in to the council in protest at the closure of a tram crossing in Anchorsholme and now another three thousand going in from Waterloo ward residents in protest at what they refer to as an ‘illegal’ mosque operating on their doorstep.
The mosque is located on Waterloo Road in a former computer shop and neighbouring takeaway surrounded by further tatty shops and has been referred to on an external banner as a ‘multi-cultural centre’. I’m far from familiar with the religious differences in the various Muslim sects but apparently this mosque houses practising Sunni muslims.
I don’t have anything against mosques or religion (aside from thinking the latter to be pointless), however there is a little more to this issue than meets the eye, hence the strong local protest in relation to this mosque.
It appears that there is no current approval to use this premises as a mosque, but the owners have submitted an application for change of use to a meeting place for the local community. This does mean that at this moment the use as a mosque is not allowed, but it continues to operate without any problems.
According to the Gasjet the mosque is set to grow to five times the capacity as the owner has consumed four additional shops in this row and wants to knock them all through. Apparently plans are being drawn up by architects as I write this.
On their Wikipedia page, it confirms this and states that there is already capacity for 400 people in their two operational premises with three further premises in the process of development. This would, assuming equal size, create a 1,000 capacity Islamic hub.
This has provoked fears of an Islamic influx into what is a very white, traditional community, and whether people like to talk about it or not, many people do fear Islam based on the constant reports of terror plots and suicide bombings from the media.
Never mind that though, with 1,000 capacity it suggests that the biggest problem will be that of car parking. Indeed, some residents have complained that there is a current issue with respect to this, and given the expansion of the mosque this will only exacerbate.
The mosque has been picked up on the radar of the English Defence League, with one spokesman throwing their support behind the residents;
“If you went out and spoke to the local residents you would find out they are up in arms against the mosque. It’s only a select few individuals supporting it.
“We are a democratic country and everyone has the right to support any cause they want to.
“I have no ill feelings towards them or those who have the mosque, what I have ill feelings towards is the idea to build a super mosque in Blackpool, which people don’t want.”
Only a select few individuals are supporting it? Who might they be?
The mosque is owned by none other than Tussaraf Shah. You may also know her as Natasha Shah, and possibly other names.
Shah is one of the Blackburn Babes and has been heavily involved in the local Labour Party for 8 years, having initially helped current leader Simon Blackburn and running mate Mary Smith get elected in Bloomfield in 2003. More recently, she stood in this year’s local elections for Labour as a candidate in Waterloo, but unlike her running mate David O’Hara, she lost.
She can clearly count many, if not all Labour councillors including the leader as good friends though.
As I mentioned, Shah and her group have taken ownership of 5 retail properties in this area with a view to creating what the EDL refer to as a “super mosque”. Obtaining this large-scale change of use to non-retail seems to me to be a huge gamble, given that this is a retail area populated by individual retail establishments.
A similar, if not bigger gamble is obtaining permission to knock them all through.
But wait. Her former running mate, Cllr David O’Hara, is seated on the council’s Planning Committee alongside 6 other Labour councillors. Could he or his planning/party political colleagues have tipped her the wink that they’ll pass her application?
Naturally, the integrity of the Planning Committee would be called into question if any of the Labour councillors with a personal interest were allowed to be involved in any decision over this mosque project. Regardless of what name Tusarraf Shah is using on the forms, it has been well publicised who is behind this mosque, with the Gasjet referring to her as the ‘owner’. Labour councillors all know her as a political activist and would not want to lose her support.
On the subject of planning, it has been put to me that in Blackpool it is usually fine for businesses and homeowners to modify their property in any way they see fit, and if this is raised with the council, they can just apply for retrospective planning permission and they will get it. Even if they fail to secure it, it doesn’t actually matter because there is no enforcement, just a volume of paperwork that you can readily ignore until you decide to submit another application.
It has already been alleged that the current arrangement of councillors on the Planning Committee, chaired by the esoteric Cllr Owen, will “approve anything put in front of them”.
Turassaf Shah didn’t do that well in the local elections, and another school of thought is that the Labour Party itself could be driving this project as a means of building a community of Labour voters in preparation for the next election. They are up to similar mischief with schools, as long-standing school governors are being replaced by Labour Party apparatchiks.
Those without an ephemeral memory might well be thinking, “hang on a second, didn’t Peter Callow’s Conservatives allow a tram depot to be built at Starr Gate without any planning permission?” Yes, they did. They also allowed Carnesky’s Ghost Train to set up on the Promenade without planning permission until United Utilities kicked off about it blocking access to drains.
They also approved planning permission for Kensington Developments to build on Marton Moss despite a fairly intense local backlash over allegations his party had accepted money from Kensington in exchange for it.
But these issues have been condemned as part of the package of failures that contributed to Callow’s demise: he never listened to the residents and just did whatever he wanted. Simon Blackburn promised that if elected his party would be the Residents’ Party and would listen to local people.
I mentioned at the start that two significant petitions had been submitted already; one for Lauderdale Avenue’s tram crossing, and one for this mosque.
Simon Blackburn should have rejected the tram crossing closure idea on the basis that local people don’t want it, that every stakeholder has gone on the record to reject closure for myriad reasons, and that the case for closure would only stand up in a kangaroo court. But he didn’t.
However, petitions can be a powerful tool: because there are more than 1,500 signatures in the petition, this forces the council to stage a 20-minute debate about it.
The campaigners against this mosque can, and should do the same with their petition. They should submit it to democratic services and force this issue with the council.
I’m surprised the local Conservative councillor, Cllr Lee, is not all over this; perhaps he is on ‘holiday’.
Phil,
Looks like too much of a read and people didn’t reach the reply box.
Having visited the Mosque myself in its early development, I have no doubt that Tassaraf Shah is working with good intent to develop a multicultural community centre, sadly her efforts will be muddied by the way in which this council handles the planning process and the lack of credibility at the moment in the Political and Managerial competence of those who hold power and authority.
I would much rather see 3,000 people petition against poor managers who are down right ignorant to the opinions and views of the towns residents.
I dont do religion its a control mechanism, so I have no grievance to any creed colour or culture. I can however tell you this, Blackpool is heading for BIG trouble if it dosent start to listen to the people of the town, on what they will put up with and what they wont. Currying favour ( no pun intended ) with people who you think can get you what you desire in life always has a price to pay, so becareful what you wish for you just might get it.
This application is not a wise move.
Aren’t Moslems people of this town if they live here shouldn’t they be allowed a say in the community?
“I dont do religion its a control mechanism” control mechanisms are bad things are they?
I do do religion my church has 600 people in most Sundays when the elderly people of our church where stuck in their homes during winter a couple of years ago they didn’t go without shopping or company and the church community rallied around them and supported them. Isn’t that what communities do?
It’s nice that your church helps out like that, but a religion is not required for help and community outreach like that. Religion is a control mechanism, just because your small church group does help out in the community does not make the entire idea okay. I am going to assume that your religion is christianity, in which case your religion has done more harm to the world than good. An immense amount of harm that is still going on to this day. And Christianity is not alone in this, all three of the major monotheistic religions are terribly damaging to communities and lives. But please bear in mind, i do not have a problem with religious people, i have a problem with the religion itself.
most of the above comment is vague rubbish.
Please elaborate?
I do do religion my church has 600 people in most Sundays when the elderly people of our church where stuck in their homes during winter a couple of years ago they didn’t go without shopping or company and the church community rallied around them and supported them. Isn’t that what communities do?
That is exactly what communities are supposed to do. It makes my heart glad to read this.
to be in a community you dont need to be in a religion! i would help my elderly neighbours should they need it and serveral of my neighbours have already offered help to myself last winter! no religion required…
Hannah not for one second was I saying people who don’t belong to a religion they can’t be part of a community. My post was in response to Kate who said that the council should listen to the people of the town, in favour of stopping the Mosque being built or that is how I read it, I was just pointing out that people who are religious often have strong community feelings and that their views should be listen to as well.
There’s a meeting of residents at the Stanley Working Mens Club in town central at 1100 hours, Wednesday 24th August 2011, ostensibly anti mismanagement in Blackpool…
Shit, it could go on for centuries.
If you want to participate, just arrive.
What a shame that Tussaraf Shah couldn’t play by the rules and get proper planning permission in place. This mosque would have been just what the mainstream non-extreme Muslims around here require.
The mosque off central drive by the gym, although sunni, has a Wahabi/Deobandi (read Saudi/Taliban) philosophy, which is extreme and therefore has an atmosphere, philosophy and teaching that is not attractive to Muslims who are moderate in their views and respect the laws and traditions of this country above tribal primitivism and superstition.
And before I get the usual ignorant EDL/Islamophobic vitriol, just take a moment to consider the most dignified person of all to come out of the recent riots and lawlessness. Not a politician or a television talking-head but an ordinary bloke, a muslim bloke, Tariq Jahan, who lost his son murdered by rioting scum whilst trying to defend his community. I shall quote him:
”I don’t want any of you to fight … My son died defending the community he lived in. We’re part of this community so please go home.”
His idea of community is a community I would be proud to be a part of.
The quote in the gasjet about two churches on that street already doesn’t hold water as doesn’t the idea that two mosques within the same area is one too many. There are at least two synagogues in the raikes parade area but nobody is saying that there’s too many synagogues because there are different flavours of Judaic practise just as there are loads of different churches in Blackpool (mostly half-full or empty to the shame of the “England is a Christian Country” brigade). That is part of the meaning of freedom of choice and freedom of conscience – the right to worship the Supreme Deity (or not) in any fashion you see fit.
You can take it as read that I did not sign this ignorant and bigoted petition.
TT is it ok for me to worship my Lord Jesus Adolf Hitler in my SS uniform,pink frock and yellow wellington boots,whilst prancing about on acid,singing Rule Britannia to an audience of SNP activitsts?
No
It was the yellow Wellingtons that swayed the reply Harold to NO
ok green wellies then? lol
you see Harold, if there is only one of you wearing a pink frock, prancing about, singing Rule Britannia and wearing wellies then you will just look like an idiot – for a religion you need other idiots to join you and then that’s where the trouble will start – some will insist on wearing yellow wellies because that;s what the great prophet Harold decreed, I guess they would be the fundamentalist Jesuhitlerites, and there would be the others who would insist on wearing green ones. It could start a wellie war and that’s not the sort of thing we want in our neighbourhood. I would stick to wearing your wife’s clothes in secret – it’s safer!
Cheers Jimmy,its my mothers underwear actually lol,you must have seen me at the town hall in chambers,lol
Phil are you Harold’s guardian?
nice one TT,lol
I am. I keep him under the stairs in a gimp mask and feed him through a straw.
If that’s what rings your bell Harold – will you be selling tickets for this demonstration of your democratic rights? If so put me down for a couple
On the topic of religion check this out:
http://www.venganza.org/
For all you “Pastafarians” especially Kate
My religion is walking around at night,high on acid, in my dead mothers undewear,reciting the works of Alisrair Crowley,lol
Whatever way you look at it, Tussaraf Shah has been a plank by doing what she did,this resonates of the behaviour of travellers who do the same,break rules and then ask for permission and that lights peoples fuses, BIG TIME
When you consider shes changed her name, why???? and shes been involved in the labour party, then the suspicionometer flies into the danger zone.
Shes done herself and her fellow muslims, no favours;in fact she couldnt have gone about it in a worse possible way, ESPECIALLY in the current climate.
0/10 for judgement,10/10 for being a plank.
As long as people are only complaining about the lack of planning permission…
Phil is it possible to put a thumbs up or like button on the posts? many times I like or agree with what people say without having anything to add and it would be nice to show my agreement without having to waffle
There probably is Jimmy, I’ll look into it!
Regarding your first point, I think it’s pretty likely that people are petitioning against the concept of a super mosque in their area full stop, due to a perceived stigma attached to Muslims which has been created by the media representation of them.
I’m not saying this is right or wrong, just that it’s likely to be part of the issue.
My problem is that it’s all being done through the back door and in my opinion is being eased through in order to cultivate Labour votes, what with Tusarraf Shah being heavily involved in the Labour Party and probably seeking to stand for election in this ward again.
I have heard that Cllr Owen (chairman of Planning Committee) has said at a recent Area Forum that the application for change of use etc will all go through fine. This is second hand information though so could be untrue.
The stigma of Muslims is not how they are perceived by the media, its a product of their core beliefs and dogma. If the general public were even half aware of the crap that goes on in that religion then we would all be able to deal with it in a much more effective way.
“its a product of their core beliefs and dogma…”
Belief in God – same as christians.
Don’t lie, cheat, steal or kill – same as christians.
Respect other people and honour any contracts – same as christians.
Seek a peaceful outcome to conflict if possible – same as christians.
Strive to lead a morally acceptable life in the eyes of God – same as christians.
Embrace good and reject evil – same as christians.
Keep yourself clean and tidy – same as christians.
Be charitable to the poor and needy – same christians.
Have you read the Qur’an? A rhetorical question because it is plain to me that you haven’t.
You must have a problem with christian people as well if you have a problem with muslim people or is it that many muslim people in this country have complexions that are too dark for your prejudices?
You are correct, i have a major problem with every religion that encourages hatred and propagates ridiculous myths and actively encourages ignorance and the derailing of reason and logic. From the tone of the post it looks as though you are assuming i am racist, i have no problem with any race. I despise religion itself. I have read the Qur’an, as i have read the bible.
All you have done with your list is cherry pick a few random moral ideas that people assume are portrayed by the bible/Qur’an.
I don’t assume because that would make an ass of both you and me.
I know that you haven’t read the Qur’an or if you have you’ve glanced at it superficially because if you had read it properly you’d know that I haven’t just cherry-picked a few random moral ideas. The examples I have given are in the Qur’an and are part of the moral code that muslims are supposed to live by.
As well as the Qur’an there is the “sunnah” which is based upon the ahadith (doings and sayings) attributed to the prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) wherein muslims try to emulate his example in cases where there is no information revealed in the Qur’an on a subject. It’s a bit like christians saying: “What would Jesus do?”
Finally there are the “5 Pillars of Islam”:
Profession of faith.
Prayer.
Ritual fasting.
Pilgrimage to Mecca.
You atheists are IMHO the most illogical people on the planet
Oops on the 5 pillars of Islam I missed out alms-giving.
I cannot reply to your other reply, the button isn’t there, threads seem to have a limit on here. If you can answer my question then, why are you muslim? If you think that the christian teachings are so similar then why are you a muslim? Why not christian, jew, buddist, sikh, pagan, etc etc etc?
Also, what is the punishment for apostasy in your religion? As in… what is the punishment for merely trying to leave the religion? as stated in your qu’ran.
I chose Islam having been born a protestant christian. It was my choice and I reserve the right to make that choice in a supposedly free society.
The punishment for apostasy in Islam is death.
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/
core beliefs and dogma? Worship, fasting, alms giving, spiritual self improvement? these are bad? The problem lies not with faiths or religions but with the people who use these to further their own power -
Hear! Hear!
All you have done is selected a few small aspects of the Islam religion. You cannot generalise the entire religion on a few traditions, the rabbit hole goes much deeper.
jimmygrundy is right its about people misusing religion and not the religion itself.
Are you kidding???! The world would be a VERY dark place if everyone used the major religions “Correctly”, and by that i mean by following it fundamentally. Slave ownership would be rife, stonings and murder would be completely justifyable, Rape, the mistreatment of women, the killing of homosexuals, the list goes on and on. Thank your lucky stars that most people DONT use religion properly. Because when it is followed word for word, planes get flown into buildings, people get beheaded, and buses are blown up.
Slave ownership – In the Qur’an the freeing of a slave is considered a righteous act in the eyes of God.
Stonings and murder would be completely justifyable(sic) – Er no. Stoning to death was actually a hebrew practice adopted by muslims as it is in the bible and it has to be justified by a fair trial.
Murder is forbidden in all religions.
Rape is also forbidden by all religions.
The mistreatment of women is not a religious problem but a tribal/racial one – it’s not allowed in the three monotheistic religions as far as I can see.
The killing of homosexuals could be the only point you may have a case based upon current social morality.
Both Judaism and Chritianity call for the death of homosexuals.
Islam allows for a homosexual to repent and discontinue the practice and if he does he’s released. However, if he’s caught committing homosexual acts again then he’s executed. Firstly for committing the act itself but also because he’s lied before God and to the community in his previous trial.
Furthermore, it must be pointed out that in order to be convicted of such an act in an islamic court there must be 4 witnesses to the act. Not very likely is it unless you’re as camp as a row of tents and a complete exhibitionist with it and prepared to shag in front of witnesses?
The world would be a VERY dark place if everyone used the major religions “Correctly”.
Actually I believe the opposite and think that the world would be a much better place if people adhered to a moral code as in the not so recent past whether it be christian or muslim.
IMHO It’s time people took responsiblity for their actions and suitable punishments for wrongdoers were handed out by our courts.
Should read “recent past” or “not too distant past”
All you have to do is look around, the people who are using faith and religion to gain power are the leaders of the religions themselves. I’m just glad at the moment we have a government that is secular and not based on religion.
“leaders of the religions themselves”
I am a muslim the only leader I have is God and he doesn’t need power as he has the lot!
“I’m just glad at the moment we have a government that is secular and not based on religion.”
Again, technically wrong. The english common law which is what our law is based upon is based upon the 10 commandments, christian morality, tradition and common sense.
Also I should point out that Church of England clergy sit in the House of Lords, the upper house of our government.
“the people who are using faith and religion to gain power are the leaders of the religions themselves”. No argument with that, but why does that invalidate religion per se ? There are many MPs/councillors out there who have used their position to gain power and affluence does that invalidate their political party or the basic tenets of Democracy?
please take note that just like the ‘klu klux klan’ is not indicative of the Christian faith, or ‘Chabadism’ is not indicative of the Jewish faith ‘al qaeda’ does not stand or the whole of the Islamic faith. and neither are all atheists Marxist
Good post Jimmy.
I am glad we have a secular government like USSR under Stalin????
Hold on does this mean all secular governments are evil??????
Good point interested.
However, the latest version of the Soviet Union, the EU, openly doesn’t recognise Christian holidays or religion.
They don’t do God – must be satanic in nature.
Don’t put words into Jamesh mouth
And theres me thinking the leader of all Muslims had just been killed in his house in Pakistan by the Americans.
*runs*
Leader of all Muslims? Osama Bin Laden? I think not. A CIA-backed stooge from a minority sect. He outlived his usefullness as bogeyman and was slotted either a few months ago or in the caves of Tora Bora ten years ago – pick your version of events.
It was a tongue in cheek comment…
The application is not a wise move as some people in that area feel that it is all being rushed through and in a under handed way. Some didnt know who she was until recently, then when it came out she was running for labour this year, it went global so to speak.
A bit like the Crystal Road job, no one knew what hit them until it was all signed sealed and delivered. By the way I asked today at Crystal Road and it has had 3 surveys done on it recently and the guys renovating the property say they have had NO communication from the council at all other than it is to be started next year. What exactly is to be done to it remains top secret, as it all depends on the budget, but get this is will cost over £500.000 to fix it should they be told to save face for the council. I want receipts and someone head if this happens.
well said TT, most sensible post I’ve seen on here in a long time!
Tang does have a heart he likes to hide it behind his macho image its like giving it an airing every now and again. I wouldnt have signed it either.
Macho moi? I think not unless you think that I consider my Stratocaster an extension of my already (if I may be so immodest) considerable “sword of peace”
Imho there is a justified stigma attached to SOME types of but certainly NOT ALL Muslims but mainly PAKASTANI muslims as opposed to turkish/bosnian etc, they are the complete vile scourge of this nation,those residents have every right to be concerned about a mosque as they fear Blackpool becoming another Blackburn/Bradford Burnley…………..The liberals wanted a multicultural society, now they have one and boy its a fuckin mess.
My experiences with these people stem from 20 years ago at Uni and at work in Preston, it gave me an insight into a value system thats at odds with western values,ultimately they arent to blame but the PC liberals who have undermined this country’s cocial cohesion with failed multicultralism, mass immigration and PC.
Exactly Victor, I think what people are afraid of is not the religion per se, or the people per se, but the way in which a pocket of differing culture may impact on their own and eventually become the dominant culture: mighty oaks from little acorns grow. I believe this is a large element behind the petition against this super mosque.
With all the pandering to Muslims that goes on, people are afraid that their indigenous local culture will end up as a silent minority. Liberals will tell us to open our minds and embrace it, of course, and that we should be happy for a growing Muslim population.
Think about this little scenario though. Lets say David Cameron’s party are the Muslim Party and Nick Clegg’s party are the Indigenous, Secular, Average Joe, Hard Working Taxpayer Party.
Now think about how many Liberal Democrat MPs and supporters are constantly fucking whingeing about the coalition because they are not getting the concessions or support they wanted. Just like the Liberal Democrats, people don’t want to express themselves vociferously but remain unlistened to.
They remain a shining example that if you are in the minority, and nobody supports you, you can’t do shit. And this is what people fear about the impact of a booming Muslim population.
So phil what do you suggest we do?
Do you suggest that we actually discriminate against Muslims refuse opening of Mosque but fund opening of church’s? Allow them to work hard and earn money and pay tax but say that their culture should be hidden away?
We stop muslim immigration
We ban the burkha
We ban Sharia law
for a start
Multicultarlism works on one assumption,that the cultural sytems have a common set of values,they dont,hence the problems.
Multicultralsim is cultural anarchy.
So we are suggesting faith be part of the immigration process?
How about the Muslims in UK now would we force them out?
I didn’t think Sharia law is enforceable in the UK?
We dont force the muslims in the uk out,but we stop immigration from countries with substantial muslim populations,bangladesh,pakistan,especially,if we dont we will have many tower hamlets across the uk,no thanks.
sharia courts have been set up in the uk but at a low level for civil disputes.
Ban them.
so when you talk about controlled immigration we control by country of birth and not religion?
well why not both? most people want to see immigration reduced substantially anyway, that would be welcome and allay peoples fears.
I beleive if we had the australian system from the start, we wouldnt be having half the problems we have now,as we know it was zanulabour who wanted to multicultralise Britain to get one over on the tories.
Nasty labour,another reason why I can never vote them nationally again.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222769/Dishonest-Blair-Straw-accused-secret-plan-multicultural-UK.html
I didn’t think religion or place of birth was in the Australian immigration point scoring system.
So no Muslims and no one from certain countries even if they are white or Christian.
So skill need of the country must come second to a secular country.
Perhaps we can hang a sign at the cliffs of Dover.
It may not be, but it may have to be,if we are to deal with this problem or we could just do zanulabours approach, sit back and embrace diversity, whilst having wasted billions on a not fit for purpose education system,where everyone is guarnteed sucess or deferred sucess and bolstering a welfareist created underclass.until the problems get so bad that the population either leaves or votes in parties with much more radical approaches.
Labour have a lot to answer for.
so what you are saying is that you think it is a good idea to prevent people entering the country who have a religious belief that is different to that of the general population and that those who are already here should not be allowed to foist their religious tenets on the population at large?
Well here is a problem as a catholic my religious beliefs are different than that of the general population. As Harold has already said we are a bunch of paedophiles. So no Catholics.
I have no difficulties in setting limits for immigration but I don’t think faith and nationality should not be one. I also fear that once we say we don’t want these people coming into this country because of simple faith they have we also say we don’t want people living in this country full stop.
my question was really for Harold I am a catholic too o i know where you are coming from
“For the record I despise the catholic church, its run by raging paedos”
This is what I said, and I stand by that view.
Now now Interested,I didnt say that “catholics are a bunch of paedophiles”, but I have no difficulty in condemning an institution that has covered up paedophila,consorted with the likes of Adolf Hitler, and with other fascist regimes like General Franco and has yet to put right the wrongs,my family are irish catholics and I know the score on that one!
As for stopping people from coming into this country due to religious beliefs, well Islam isnt just a religion is it? Its a total value system with its own laws and its a civilistion.Whilst most muslims are very decent people, there are are obvious issues with its compatability with western liberalism, especially on sexual equality,homosexuality and freedom of speech, theings that we should be protecting.
The irony is( and its still lost on these pc pricks), is that in foisting their pc ‘equality’ ideology onto society , is that they have brought in a very conservative value system that is sepratist,intolerant(by western standards),homophobic,male dominated etc.They have dug a massive hole on that one.
Muslims arent to blame,its NOT their fault but pc liberals with their multcultralism are, and that mainly means ZANULABOUR, with its perverse ‘inclusive’ society.When people criticised the pc multi culti brigade they were wrongly labelled racists and nazis.
Its failed and I dont hear of any suggestions to sort it out, do you?
Read your history about Pope Pius XII, 860 thousand jews saved by him and his church.
Today its just the leadership of the Catholic church which are pedophiles tomorrow it will be all of us.
Today Muslims are not allowed in tomorrow we will be kicking them out.
As I said no problem with the Aussie system but that’s not what you are proposing is it.
Yep he did save 1000s of jews but throughhout the ages the catholic church persecuted them as well,no getting away from that.oh yes theres the inqusition as well, nice bunch they were, you forgot to mention them, a slight ommision.
what solutions do you offer to address the failure of multicultralism?
none.
“Today its just the leadership of the Catholic church which are pedophiles tomorrow it will be all of us.
Today Muslims are not allowed in tomorrow we will be kicking them out.”
is this the new labour party manifesto that you offering here?
oh and as a reminder war criminal/multicultralist/money waster Toady Blair, connverted to catholicism,welcome to the catholic church Tony! lol lol lol
so victor talking of Jews, what would you do about them immigrating into this country?
Yep he did save 1000s of jews but throughhout the ages the catholic church persecuted them as well,no getting away from that.oh yes theres the inqusition as well, nice bunch they were, you forgot to mention them, a slight omission
Unlike you and the Harold I don’t believe in rewriting history I am well aware of my faiths past but I do believe you learn from your past and I think we have a prime example here with Pope Pius XII his action during the second world war are to be applauded and not lied about. The inquisition was horrible but my faith has learned from our mistakes (hopefully) your favourite author of Islamic invasion of Europe is rewriting history to justify his view points, telling lies and misusing statistics.
You suggest BNP and the EDL has the answers they have drug pushers, rapists, people guilty of crimes of violence and lots more so don’t shine a light on my faith if you are unwilling to shine a light on your political parties.
As for the answer to your burning question I could say something trite like put your faith in God but I won’t because I am a realist and I do feel there are solutions out there. I feel Muslims who preach hatred should be imprisoned and if possible force to leave our country (if they are not British Citizens) , I believe controlled immigration is needed and would help, I feel this blind spreading of fear some people wish to do is unhelpful and people should try putting out true facts about our communities, I would stop blaming every thing on MC and start trying to solve the real problems that are plaguing our country at present such as single parent families, benefit living, mass unemployment and government wasting money on foreign policies why people in this country are losing homes and living the poverty lines.
I would also point out that communities are stronger when we work together instead of apart and building bridges rather then putting up walls is what we should be trying to do. Not saying this is my country and not yours even if these yours where born and rised in this country.
No issue with jews at all,catholic church has a history of persecution intolernace,after all it was they who launched acrusade against the muslims that would give the muslims a run for their money, probably worse.
In fact I categorise the catholic church and muslim faith as being 2 of a kind;they arent that far apart.
EDL and BNP dont have the answers,they arent my parties but I can see why people do support them,they are a product of MC but scrapping multicultralism, already acknowledged to be a failure and massively reducing immigration is a start (something you beloveed labour party did not want to do) and no more muslim immigrants, you dont keep putting more wood on a pile of wood thats ready to go up in flames,its in their benefit as its in ours.
I am not rewrtiring history interested but are you denying it?, after all your beloved paedo loving pope was a member of the nazi youth,cunt that he is who wants to catholicise Europe, I hope he gets blown away,hes another abu hamza, with his fancy knob shaped hat.
The catholic chuch has an appalling history of persecution and hatred and has helped spread aids,especially in africa through its bizarre stance on contrception;its an abomination.
There are numerous academics and writers who have attacked MC and they have been vindicated,Douglas Murray and Prof Roger Scruton are 2 names you should consider.
Intetested, your beloved labour party has created and fostered this mess and you know it, ultimately they are the real scumbags here,not the muslims etc.
Tony Bliar when joing his paedo loving pope friend has found himself amongst his ilk,hes in good company.
Harold your miss-use of facts is truly outstanding and tiny bit idiotic.
Let’s start with Pope Benedict being a Nazi youth this just is rubbish you are suggesting the Pope was a Nazi, lets look at historical facts. Joseph Ratzinger snr (the pope father they shared the same name) was a German police officer and was a anti-Nazi he would break up Hitler’s brown shirts demonstrations and often try to arrest them (this is all well documented) to such a extent that his family where targeted by the Nazis and was forced to move from home to home to avoid retaliation and when the Nazis where firmly in power they forced him out of the police. Now Joseph Ratzinger jnr was in the Hitler youth but that is not the full story in Germany by 1941 it was compulsory to join the Hitler youth the process was simple when a German child turned 14 he was sent a card telling him he was a member, he never attended a single meeting. You could argue he could have spoken against Hitler and the Nazi party but he was a boy of 14 who had seen his father being hounded by these people all his life and knew his cousin had been taken to a concentration camp and killed; I think you would have been asking a lot of any child. Now before you say anything he did serve in the German army but he also never fired a shot and deserted from the same army.
The Catholic Church is spread AIDS????? No its not Harold just because the church isn’t giving out condoms does mean it is spreading AIDS. If you follow the church teaching and only have sex within wedlock and do not have anal sex then having a condom wouldn’t make a difference to the spread of AIDS would it.
Now when he was a cardinal he put the church before the people it was meant to serve and protect. This in my view speaks poorly of him and should have stopped him becoming the pope. However since he became the pope his attitude to this seems to have changed, is it to little I don’t know I admit the catholic church does have things to answer for over this. 4% of catholic priests have been involved in abuse which is awful but it should be compared with 8% of secular man who are involved in abuse.
You say in your view Catholics and Muslims are the same so I take from this you would ban catholic immigration to this country as well. The intolerance seems to be growing with anyone who argues with you.
Harold I am not a member of the Labour party I feel they have betrayed my socialist views and should not be allowed to call themselves Labour any more. I am (at present) a card carrying member of the Liberal Democrats.
I also have listed ways I feel we could improve our present society I just don’t think discrimination on faith and creed is one of them.
Your reply has summed up precisely we need less religion in this world as its based on irrational assumptions.
I didnt say the pope was a nazi,(although persecution wise of jews,the catholic church led the way on that one),take it the way you want it, to justify your belief in an irational ideology and corrupt institution that has an established history of persecution.
I didnt say you were a labour party member either ,although you admit to being a socialist and have shown pro labour support in the past.
you are a member of the lib dems? lol you mean the tory poodles,lol,lol, lol. Nick Clegg??? Camerons personal rent-boy gimp.
nuff said,noone is perfect,lol,lol,lol,lol
“I would also point out that communities are stronger when we work together instead of apart and building bridges rather then putting up walls is what we should be trying to do. Not saying this is my country and not yours even if these yours where born and rised in this country.”
Well thats fine,but that assumes we have common objectives and values,thanks to diversity,pc and multi culti, we dont now, we have divided communities along cultural lines,ie a multi cultural society, we are now ‘enriched’,we are all diverse and enriched, we have all been celebrating diversity and ignored what makes communities strong: what we have in common.
well done zannulabour!
How do you build bridges with value systems that have opposite values? You cant.
oil and water do not mix.
Interested, here is the nail in the coffin of diversity,its a fascinating read:
ttp://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/?page=full
Enjoy the read Sir!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14774142
Ah the righteous catholic church (of paedophilia) showing its concern for humanity……………..not!
Harold, like many people who like to spread the message of hate, chooses to pick facts and ignore others. I do not feel the Catholic Church is perfect but by far more abuse happens in the secular community then the religious one. I suggest people who want to read some truth should read Philip Jenkins. I know some will not because some people don’t want their views questioned (something which is thrown at religious people all the time) some people cling to bullet points because these can easily prove their views are right (example Harold suggesting the pope was a Nazi in his youth). Nothing is black and white except for people who like to find simple solutions but sadly there is no such things. Harold suggest we should ban Muslims from this country and any who come from these regions (he see Muslims and Catholics as the same) it would seem people seek easy solutions and when they cant find them chose to blame rather then looking at themselves for solutions.
Let us labour to think clearly: for such is the beginning of morality. Pascal.
Is there an underlying distrust of the SYSTEMS in place to protect and serve the community as a whole? Or are we subject to sudden and illogical outbursts of pique? Are our revulsions based on past lessons, or the ignorances instilled through poor education and illiterate parentage, or both?
Has our legal system so emasculated the freedoms that great thinkers like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson now – today cannot or could not elucidate because it is evocative and confrontational? So one man’s angst against a symbol he find horrendous, the minarets, the burkha, the indoctrination of religious intolerance disguised as education be it Catholicism, Judaism or Muslim Fundamentalism, he is to be condemned for putting a signature to a piece of paper because it offends someone else’s sensibilities?
Or is this a question of those who would be dictators doing what their anachronism suggests? Why are people surprised that our inadequacies in defending our cultural heritage has spawned a generation with little knowledge or concept of the values that made this specie of human different and some would argue superior to others? Why is it our Parliament is so busy defending a small elite of thieves that the greater debates of sovereignty and national future are now increasing place in the hands of the Keith Vaz’s, a man who dodged questions from OUR Parliament so skilfully that he is now the chairperson of such a body?
With such matters really needing addressing, the common recourse for incumbent planning committees is to completely ignore the wishes of their own constituents making objections seem meaningless – unless people are prepared to learn from our forefathers and use intellectual argument to convince the common man of a stance and take actions to rectify injustices? So what is the difference between the planning permission sought by an immigrant group than the suspicion that past schemes were treated with equal ill-consideration? What is so important is what are the objectors going to do to convince me of their argument?
I have a few issues that spring to mind, I was to teach Feng Shui in Kuwait next month. I turned the job down because, I would have to wear all the garb, not speak to a man until I was spoken to, not have bodily contact with them, I find it polite to shake hands with a colleague, thats out! plus a string of other stuff and as a Chinese Astrologer as well as Feng Shui teacher if I taught astrology I would be beheaded. I have been to a number of countries where I have had to abide by their laws or else.
Another issue, I took a guy to court in 2009, it ended up with him owing me £10,000 for a job I did for him,this was including barristers fees. He had knocked 3 hotels into one WITHOUT planning permission, building regs, Fire regs, health and safety you name he got away with it, he was eventually declared bankrupt owing £1.250.000. I now find he has bought the same building back 2 years later, after renovating again for 6 months only to find out no plans were submitted only those for a supermarket to be placed inside the hotel/restaurant, which the other hoteliers objected to, I am then told by the council no one objected. There are 5 hoteliers to contradict this statement, so being Blackpool born and British where are my rights, when every brick I removed had to be measured logged signed off and the job delayed until someone came along to make sure I was doing the job properly.
I find our council lacking when the race card is thrown, any wonder why people are getting pissed off.
I agree if you go to someone elses country YOU ABIDE by their rules if you want to be there if you dont you dont go, it should be the same here in this country. I cannot abide the one rule for one and not for another, wheres the fair play in that.
Fair poins Kate but pc/multicultralism has undermined social cohesion;its the digger in the woodpile and its now official, its a failure, as if we didnt know already,lol.
Hi Kate,
One of the things we need to in this town is keep pushing for high standards from those who are paid to provide services for for us and not too us, My experience has been; if you dare to challenge a decision of the council you start to feel the wrath of their authority. Having made a recent complaint I have received 2 veiled threats of the police and the other person involved received a letter of complaint without being signed or specific details included, the letter however was sent from the same department. What I would like to see is people who engage in this site getting together to challenge the scrutiny panels that exist to make sure they are acting in the best interest of the whole community; not just those with a party membership or egotistical megalomaniacs within a nepotist public sector. I agree with your sentiment that what is fair for one should be the same for the other.
This Council does not even have a code of conduct for its paid staff so what can we expect.More of the same unless more people get together to fight the injustices that appear to be common place in Blackpool. Rules are only as good as the people implement them. Sadly, many of our illustrious leaders and managers cant even apply them let alone abide by them.
Damn right push for high standards and accountability, and if you are having pressure put on you from the so called powers that be, give it them straight back. Let everyone know whats going on and how you are being targeted I have had some of that in the past, even when I knew I was going to win my case, my solicitor kept saying take the money Kate you could lose, to which I replied I have no idea why I am paying you, I did the work for you to win the case and they havent even offered the money I paid out in solicitors fees, so until they do the answer is no and I will still win the case. I did win it, and I saw a seedier side to the law system and how they work together on a job. There are at least 3 firms I wont ever trust again in Blackpool after what I was subject too. Some of these boys think a woman on her own is a push over, “wrong woman”. I am all for a system where we stand together on an issue, trouble is I KNOW my strengths, I dont back down, you need to know the strengths of your colleagues no weak links, thats were any team falls down, so yeah count me in if you come up with a suggestion thats feesible.
Geez Kate i thought better of you – Such drivel about Kuwait – My partner used to work in Kuwait so I think I know what I am talking about – you do not have to wear any ‘garb’ I assume you are talking about a burqa ? they just dont like you flashing too much flesh so provided you cover the shoulders and knees trousers or skirts you’re fine – many European women do wear an Abaya (the long tunic dress) but that is because believe it or not, it keeps you cooler. There is quite a lot of religious freedom in Kuwait, for example the Catholic Bishop of North Arabia has his base there; you could cast horoscopes to your hearts content as long as you did it privately and not sell your predictions on street corners. They do not chop anyone’s head of either – they do have capital punishment but it is hanging and only for crimes of murder or drug trafficking and from a quick surf of the internet the last execution was in 2007 – possession of alcohol though can incur a hefty fine or deportation which is why I will never go. And of course you can shake someone’s hand – they are a very friendly nation and quite westernised.
I am surprised you would doubt my word. The garb is in the contract, as is the warning about teaching astrology as is the no contact, which was made very plain. I dont dress it up I say it as I have been informed, my colleague who usually teaches there is pregnant so I was to take her place. She is not prone to exaggeration either, she is Chinese and very honourable, and was attacked by one of her students partners for explaining the concept of how to analyse a 9 star ki chart, and this is not astrology as we know it. But then I cannot speak for every single person in Kuwaits reaction to my actions, so I stick to the code. Your experience is your experience and as I act for and behalf of the FSRC I will honour a contract.
But like you said you will NEVER go, and you dont know anything until you do. Which means you havent been, correct me if I am wrong on that point. I trust my colleagues word she has been numerous times, and has experienced the culture. It is better to be safe than sorry when you are a woman travelling on your own, dont you agree.
Well I have been to Kuwait and Saudi and without a doubt short dress and lots of flesh doesn’t go down well. However it is reasonable liberal for non-Muslims the not talking to man until spoken to isn’t true and so is the body contact. However if you are in a class room setting they do expect you to be more formal and respectful of their customs and as for being beheaded for teach astrology I think you are well off the mark.
Actually on the “astrology” issue Kate is right – partly.
Kuwait, like Saudi Arabia, is a Wahabi state and astrology is considered to be a form of witchcraft. It can get you a prison sentence and if the is a plaintiff claiming that your astrology has harmed them in any way then you could possibly get a flogging as well. Execution is rare for this “crime” but it does happen.
Actually I need to correct the above – witchcraft is a crime but in Kuwait there has not been one execution for this crime since independence in 1961.
However, next door in Saudi:
“A man has been sentenced to death in Saudi Arabia for witchcraft because he makes predictions on television.
Ali Sibat is not even a Saudi national. The Lebanese citizen was only visiting Saudi Arabia on pilgrimage when he was arrested in Medina last year.
A court in the city condemned him as a witch on November 9.
The only evidence presented in court was reportedly the claim he appeared regularly on Lebanese satellite issuing general advice on life and making predictions about the future.
The case is causing outrage among human rights campaigners but has made little news elsewhere despite the ludicrous nature of the charges and the extraordinary severity of Sibat’s sentence.
Saudi courts are sanctioning a literal witch hunt by the religious police, said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director at Human Rights Watch: The crime of witchcraft is being used against all sorts of behavior, with the cruel threat of state sanctioned executions.
Ali Sibat’s supporters say he was denied a lawyer at his trial and was tricked into making a confession.”
Hmm, you could say that he should have seen that coming…..
Like I said thats why I chose NOT to go to that country. We knew of 2 others in the same boat, someone takes a disliking to you or you dont PLEASE them in anyway they want you are a witch, so I kid you not on the seriouness of the claim. When we are told NOT to do something it is to cover our ass, we take note when in someone elses country of the do’s and dont’s for OUR own safety. No drivel intended.
“A Reprieve
The Lebanese man incredibly condemned to death for witchcraft by a Saudi court was not beheaded yesterday as had been expected, his lawyer said.
May al-Khansa said her client, TV psychic Ali Sibat, had been spared, but it was not clear whether the beheading had been waived or only postponed.”
and finally…
“A Charmed Life…
TV astrologer has witchcraft death sentence revoked in Saudi High Court
Saudi Arabia’s high court has rejected the execution sentence of a Lebanese TV astrologer unbelievably convicted of sorcery and recommended that he be deported after a new trial.
The Supreme Court in Riyadh said that the death sentence for Ali Sabat was not warranted because he had not harmed anyone and had no prior offenses in the country.
The court said his case should be sent back to a lower court in Medina to be retried and recommended that Sabat, who has spent 30 months in a Saudi prison since his May 2008 arrest, be deported, Okaz said.
Sabat was sentenced to death last November by a Medina court as astrology was considered as practicing witchcraft, illegal under Saudi Arabia’s Sharia law. He was arrested by the religious police in Medina, where he was on a pilgrimage.
The case against him was brought after he gave advice and made predictions on Lebanese television, broadcast to Saudi Arabia via satellite.”
Not so it is considered witchcraft, and I am pretty accurate on my readings on predicting a persons chart, I might be a little foggy on a date when predicting the actual time of a tsunami or an earthquake but they always happen. I will not be going to Kuwait so its not an issue now, we were warned that it is a very volatile subject, but then this subject raises questions here in the UK so why wouldnt it in other countries that are not as lenient as us. I was viewed with suspicion when I worked in Egypt, thankfully I have a good friend who lives there so I felt I had some support. Anything can happen to you if someone takes a disliking to you or what you do in a foreign country then your luck is in the lap of the gods, or there legal system, and I have no faith in those.
I have to say unless you ARE female and travel on your own with your work, some of you guys have no idea what we have to put up with. Even in this day and age, while in Toronto I checked into the Wyndham Bristol Hotel on my own with by brief case and in a very expensive classy leather knee length skirt suit. I had just flown in from Quebec, heading to Chicago. I went out to eat and when I returned I wanted a night cap which I had brought up to my room, they waiter said he was to come in the room and put it on the table at the other end of the roomwhich was very odd, he checked every nook and cranny scanning the room with his eyes to see if there was someone else in the room. Same thing happened at breakfast the next day, someone stood by me while I was on the mobile having a conversation, I was asked 4 times if there was anything they could do for me, even when I was talking on the phone.
I suddenly realised, they thought I was a hooker, that didnt impress me at all, I thought I was going to blow a gasget, I went back to my room packed and put on the classiest outfit I had with me, and complained to the manager. I told them this hotel had been recommended by Master Yu for all members of the FSRC but I wouldnt be using it again. When they realised I was not a lady of the night, they offered me a weekends stay free of charge, I told them what to do with there week ends stay. No woman should have to accept that kind of prejudice where ever she goes. Mind you its not as bad as Ireland when I went to buy a horse and was asked if I was catholic or protestant, I said spiritual he wanted to know if that was a catholic spiritual or a protestant spiritual…dick head.
You’ll look back with fondness on this experience and the fact that they found you so alluring that you could have been an escort hahaha
(Lure cast slightly to the right and awaiting a trout to bite)
I don’t like the EDL and I think if there is a strong local support against this Mosque then the locals would be wise to keep the EDL out of it. As for petitions if the EDL have been involved in getting these signatures then the council would be well advised to look at it carefully. In the past some petitions have been signed several times by the same person, blocked signed by members of an organisation who live all across the country and signatures of people who are under 16.
More sidesteps thrown than Stanley Matthews produced in his years at Bloomfield Road.
Why mention the EDL? A persons political bent should be as sacrosanct as his religion, but both schools ruin the message by relying on fantasy and nightmares – sorry daydreams.
Question 1. Is Blackpool’s planning office fit for purpose? On evidence, NO. Take what Kate has related then add…
When the council was approached they allowed Foxhall Juniors to erect a permanent changing room without going through the rules. It was only AFTER permission was granted that notices were placed for public scrutiny. Both Cllrs Henderson and Fowler went absent and were not contactable. No members of the public had any information to base a judgment on and the building was erected obscuring the view of several flats. The only objection the residents wanted to happen was the building to be moved ten yards north onto vacant land that has no other usage as it is too small an area for general play. Now the building stands as an open air toilet and a shabeen for under age drinkers – with a car park for a council security van. Great waste of tax payers money and a blot on residents landscape who now have a horrendous green wall blocking out the morning light.
2 Are councillors fit for purpose? I prefer my Oz cousins attitude. All politicians should be given two terms. One in office, the second in prison
Don’t forget Wednesday morning 1100 hrs, Stanley Working Mens Club. It’s your opportunity to give voice to your complaints.
EDL is in Phils article what I am saying is if it is a local issue a national organisation like the EDL will only side track the debate into racism.
the EDL are no better than the obsessive religious! nothing better to do with their spare time!
I have nothing against religion, especially when it fills the emptyness of losing a loved one (which is often the case in the christian/catholic case).. my nan actually prefers bingo… but surely you should only use the religion as a guide in life…
all this rules and regulations and you’ll go to hell if you dont or get a million wives if you do just creates the very extremisim we are experiencing at the moment!
and knowing several religious people (from different religions) i think the most disgusting act is to inflict religion on your children…. by all means bring them up how you see fit but when they are a grown adult they should chose their own path, marry whoever they want (or not marry at all) and fulfil their own dreams!
I wasn’t brought up in a religious household I was baptised when I was 20 but I did and do bring my children up in a Christian household. Your comment “ i think the most disgusting act is to inflict religion on your children” I can think of a lot of worse things to do to a child like sending them into care because your mum was to business running shops rather then looking after her kids. My oldest son who is now 22 doesn’t go to church anymore (except at Easter and Christmas) but I do feel he lives his live with a strong Christian ethos and I see no wrong in that. My 17 year old daughter attends every Sunday I don’t make her see goes happily but she is no better then my oldest son but I still feel the up bringing I and my wife have given them gives them a strong moral value system. I think your silly comments hinting that people who are religious would rather their children are unhappy but follow the faith rather then happy and following their own dreams is fairly insulting and a tiny bit immature.
… and all this uninformed diatribe about religion
so can you explain how a muslim girl is not allowed to marry a non muslim man and that her family cant know about him because she’d be outcast (or worse)?! is that making ger happy?! NO!!!!!! do you think thats right?!
do you think a person who is brought up with it drummed into their heads that children out of wedlock is wrong going to have an abortion just to avoid the reaction of their parents is right?!
this is my point people do do this!!!! (read the first line in my previous comment noting the word obsessive)
you are obv not one of those who inflict but encourage! and have taken my comment as an insult to you when this is simply not the case!
i meant the most disgusting act with regard this conversation – of course there are more perverse things in life! dont be so pedantic!
I went to church as a child, my parents had us blessed (not christened) but non of us have attended church since early teens (with the exception of weddings, christenings and funerals of family friend etc) and we all still have very good morals and we are all successful individuals!
as i say, nothing against religion but its not right to inflict it as strict do’s and dont’s!
hey ho if you dont like my comments i wont lose sleep – freedom of speech n all that!
Hannah, if you’re not interested in religion then fine but it does not give you the right to be judgemental about those who have a faith, regardless of what that faith is.
All religions have rules and if you want to be a part of that faith then you must follow the rules associated with that faith.
It’s not a “pick-and_mix” situation where you can take the bits that suit you and discard the rest because they don’t fit in with your lifestyle. Faith is not a superficial thing to be toyed with for a little while then discarded, it is a life choice, pure and simple. It might not suit you but who are you to dictate to others what is right or wrong for them.
but why should you choose what your child does?! my friend is 31 years old and cant marry the person she wants to becasue her family disown her! her happiness should be what matters not religion! how can you see that is not fair?!
is blackmail not against religious beliefs?! if so they should take a long hard look at themselves because disowning your child because they dont do as you wish is emotional blackmail! this girl has been living two lives because of her family for the past 6 years!
It’s not fair!
The bleat of a new generation.
Hannah freedom of speech cuts both ways if you say something and I disagree I am allow to voice my disagreement.
Hannah I don’t think your friend situation is a nice one but that is not typical of all religious people. It is unfair of people to use it as a example of what is wrong with faith.
Also as a parent until a child gets to adulthood yes I do feel I should direct them in their lives. Even after they reach adulthood as a parent I can’t see myself in not offering my opinion to them.
not reading what i’m saying – im not saying thats what religion is… jeeez! religion sometimes forces what it preaches against and what any religious, non religious or atheist person for that matter, knows is morally wrong!! NOTE THE WORD SOMETIMES!!!! as well as previous words obsessive and extremist!
I have nothing against religion at all!
i will also note that my friends situation is more common that people like to accept – her parents i wouldnt say are that strict, she wears “normal” (i dont want to use that word really but am in a bit of a hurry to think of a more apt word) clothes etc.
I think Hannah that you are missing the point. This is all about choices.
It takes two to have a relationship, your friend knows the rules her family live by and so does her boyfriend.
Now, if her boyfriend really, 101% cared about your friend then he would make every effort to make things easier for her (nod, nod, wink, wink).
However, he obviously isn’t prepared to do that so your friend must ask herself the question: Is this the man I want to be estranged from my family for and does this man really care about me?
This is something that I have seen first hand in my own family.
I am not the only muslim convert in my family.
My cousin wanted to marry a lady of pakistani heritage. Her family said no because he wasn’t muslim. My cousin converted to Islam in order to marry her. They still said no. Basically it came down to the fact that he was white and her father wanted to do the choosing (which is un-Islamic by the way).
My cousin had done everything he could to accomodate her family’s feelings and their religious beliefs. In the end they went ahead and married against her family’s will and under death threats from the male members of her family.
They had a happy marriage and had two children. My cousin’s wife could not see her family openly but from time to time secretly met up with her sister.
Years passed and things became better between the two families – it became obvious to all that the marriage was a good one and that my cousin was a good father to their children.
My cousin recently died of cancer and all of her family attended the (muslim) funeral.
Time passes and things change but that does not excuse her family for their initial ignorance but in the end love overcame all.
IMHO your friend needs to talk to her boyfriend to see how committed he is.
actually he IS converting for the sake of being with her which involves moving house and away from all his family to be nearer a mosque! I think thats two sacrifices which someone should never be asked to make!
But that is not a choice for either of them its emotional blackmail …either he does that or she gets disowned… wheres the choice!?
what would happen if his family were devout catholic and wanted her to turn RC?! its always a lose lose situation!
Hannah.
He shouldn’t have to move house at all. A mosque is important for an Islamic community but is not really necessary for the individual. A muslim can pray anywhere and doesn’t have to be in a mosque although males are expected to attend “juma’a” or communal friday prayers if possible.
Becoming a muslim is a simple process. The “shahada” (the bearing of witness or testifying) must be sincerely pronounced in front of two muslim witnesses and it takes the form: “Ashadu an la ilaha illallaha, wa ashadu anna Muhammedan abduhu wa rasuluhu”.
Translation: I affirm (or bear witness) that there is only one deity (or one worthy of worship): God and I also affirm that Muhammed is his servant and his messenger.
Then you are a muslim. Simples as Alexander the meerkat (and my wife) would say.
I think that your friend’s family require him to be near a mosque to sort of assimilate him into the muslim community. That is certainly not necessary and in some cases is used by extremists to brainwash new converts into an extreme mindset. That’s why I think this new prayer room/community centre would be good in Blackpool – to stop the Wahabi/Deobandi brainwashing of the Islamic community.
Anyway I digress…
There are things that a new convert needs to know,for example how to pray muslim style, but the most important thing is good intention and reading the Qur’an to understand the religion.
A good idea would be for your friend to have someone she knows and trusts teach her boyfriend the shahada and how to pray privately and then he can go to the mosque and publicly make his shahada. After that he will be a muslim and it is up to him personally whether he prays at the mosque or in private. How he lives his life from then on is between him and God and is nobody else’s business.
If your friend’s family are insisting that her boyfriend moves to be near a mosque then they are in error, by placing obstacles in his way and are acting in a very un-Islamic way i.e. going against the spirit of the Qur’an
which states catagorically:
“Let there be no compulsion in religion.”
Which means that you should not try to forcibly convert somebody to Islam but on the other side you are also not allowed to deny a person or discourage a person to become a muslim if they sincerely wish to become one.
By setting conditions on his conversion to Islam they are being blasphemous in that Allah (arabic for God) knows and sees everything and it is not for people to set the agenda or place conditions for another man’s spiritual progress – that should remain between that person and God.
The full Qur’anic verse regarding coercion or compulsion is the following:
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.” Qur’an 2:256
Hannah, I hope that this is useful advice for you to pass on to your friend, although I’m beginning to feel a bit like an “Islamic Marjorie Proops”!
thats really very interesting, i will pass on, thanks!
and i’m not dictating i’m expressing my opinion! faith is not a choice if your family are forcing you! i have no problem with faith but i have problems wih extremism and emotional blackmail!
Hannah I think you will find that everyone on here has problems with extremism – the problem seems to be that you are assuming that everyone who has faith (or religion) is an extremist and they are not.
i’m not… my first post said obsessive.. people are just reading what they want not what i have written! grrrr!
wish i’d never even bothered commenting now!
Hannah no harm done if you dont debate you dont get another persons point of view and we dont learn from others with different experiences, its all a learning curve. We are all adults on this site so no worries, cheer up.
Always happens when a religion debate arises! Great posts though Hannah I agree with a lot of what you said.
This will be a total disaster. Coming from Blackburn (and having lived there when it was a white town and then turning to a very high percentage muslim population way above the official statistics) I know what I’m talking about. At this stage there has been no loud organised muslim voice so only perceived lunatics will be opposing it (unless of course they are sensibly making parking an issue).
But when you encourage a large muslim population you get it. They have large families on the whole. They marry from imported non-English speaking brides and bring their in-laws over to live here. They mix with their own as they see the western lifestyle as being inferior to their own values. Deals are struck in the mosque and other muslims encouraged to work together for their own interest. House sales are often agreed there as are house offers in areas turning into muslim ones. And then you find your town starts taking on a completely different alien character – one that most certainly isn’t female friendly and tolerant of how westerners tend to behave. Which isn’t such a bad idea in principle until you realise that the world is changing to a muslim dominated one where our values won’t count for a thing. I’m not going to support the actions of the Norwegian nut that killed so many – but the point that the Islamification of Europe will be a terrible thing doesn’t seem to be sinking in. And when we’re at that point there will be no going back. There’s nothing wrong with what muslims want to do really – but there’s nothing wrong with western culture either. It’s about time that we realised that you can’t have two dominant ways of life combined – one always has to be in the minority. Unless you have that balance there is always trouble.
“I’m not going to support the actions of the Norwegian nut that killed so many – but the point that the Islamification of Europe will be a terrible thing doesn’t seem to be sinking in. And when we’re at that point there will be no going back.”
There have been Muslims and Islamic communities in Europe for over 1200 years why is it now a problem all of a sudden?
Because when it gets to a certain level it starts to compete with the host culture. There’s no problem when it really is a minority and the host countries can easily assimilate it. But when it becomes a significant part of that country – which in areas like Blackburn it has – go and take a look around – then it becomes a real issue. We don’t generally choose our culture – it’s one we’re born to, whatever it is and it is a part of us. If Europe loses it’s traditions there is nowhere else in the world with the same sort of culture. You only have to look at the situation that led to Germany being in the position it was for the conditions of World War II to be able to happen. Yes – there were nutters in charge – but it only got that way because of genuine resentment in a large number of others. Europe ignores those lessons at it’s peril – I’d like people do something about levels of immigration from cultures which are very different to that of the host country (though all immigration needs to drop for economic reasons) then we don’t get anywhere near that situation in decades down the line. Because Blackburn changed in a period of 30 years to such a huge extent it’s hard for people outside to understand just how easily and quickly things change. Look at countries with large Islamic and one other culture in them – and then look at how many have problems with people getting along together.
Frustrated has eloquently summed up the cultural destruction of a nation through multicultralism,(underpinned by social marxism,and mass immigration) which is the real enemy.
Its failed.
who will repair it?
EDL?
BNP?
?????
Only time will tell.
BNP are failing party and losing members all the time.
We wonder why there is such political apathy but perhaps it’s just because we don’t feel any of them are representative of the kind of view you express Harold.
The views you express regarding the failure of the liberal experiment are almost taboo, if you mention them then OH MY GOD RACIST!
True Phil,its a failed experiment but noone wants to replace it with other failed ideologies either,ie communism/fascism.
Theres has to be an answer to these iisues but without putting in a load of headcases either.
UKIP?
Sometimes when I tell people I am a catholic I get people saying my religion is full of paedophiles so I know how this feels.
Harold, I notice by some of your replies on this post and others that you refer to “Cultural Marxism” and other pseudo-academic drivel spawned by Anders Behring Breivik in his 2083 – A European Declaration of Independence.
I cite this document and accompanying youtube videos as drivel in that it portrays a war against Islam in Europe that never was.
For example he declares himself and his (probably imaginary) mates as “Knights Templar” organising to defend Europe against muslims and Islam.
As anybody with a smattering of historical knowledge knows, the Knights Templar never fought in Europe and were eventually defeated and expelled by muslims in the Holy Land.
The knights who did fight against the Turks in parts of Europe (Rhodes and Malta) were the Knights Hospitaller, but for Anders and his Walter Mitty mates, looking after the sick is not as sexy as riding around butchering people.
Also it’s no coincidence that the Hospitallers didn’t wear the red St George’s cross on a white surcoat and so weren’t fashionable enough nationalistically for the islamophobes of today.
The main activity of the Knights Templar in Europe was of banking not warfare and in many ways could be compared to the boards of directors of the banks that we the taxpayer have bailed out recently.
Further, Anders cites who he calls “heroes” in the European fight against Islam.
One of these heroes is John III Sobieski, King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania the main victor against the Ottoman Turks at the siege of Vienna in 1683.
Sobieski, at a crucial point in the battle, led a mass cavalry charge which tore the besieging Turkish forces apart. Amongst the Polish-Lithuanian cavalry were a large number of muslims known as Lipka Tartars (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipka_Tatars).
Although a very small minority in Lithuania and Poland today, they have been part of those Northern European countries since the 13th century. As an aside, the actor Charles Bronson was of Lipka Tartar ancestry.
At the same time as Polish-Lithuanian muslims were killing Ottoman muslims, there was a man named Count Imre Thököly de Késmárk (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Th%C3%B6k%C3%B6ly) a Hungarian Protestant and rebel against the Habsburgs who was fighting alongside the Ottoman Army against the Christians defending Vienna.
This also doesn’t take into consideration the participation of the christian vassal lords from Serbia and elsewhere in the Balkans who fought for the Ottomans against their christian co-religionists.
What I am trying to say is that what Anders Behring Breivik cites in 2083 as a war against Islam was in fact on the ground a war between empires and about imperial considerations and not the spiritual superiority of one religion above another.
I have read this so-called manifesto, 2083 (I had to take my brain for a shit afterwards
) and in the first part Breivik refers to “Cultural Marxism” and cites many people and their academic works as proponents of Cultural Marxism and “The Frankfurt School” which was supposed to have spawned it.
Not one of those people was a muslim and yet Breivik cites these peoples idealogies as the reason why Europeans must butcher and expel muslims from Europe whereas there have been Islamic communities in different parts of Europe for over 12 centuries.
Indeed, just about every person named if not all just happened to be Jewish and yet Breivik is a staunch supporter of Israel and Zionism because they happen to have dispossessed and are still murdering Palestinian muslims. Palestinian christians as well but he conveniently forgets them although he purports to be a fundamentalist christian.
IMHO Anders Behring Breivik is a sick, psychotic and totally brainwashed twat and anybody who gives credence to his twisted beliefs is a fucking cretin.
Some people are not interested in facts but blame.
your next pint is on me!
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I will meet you there.
As I am still of a poetic mind:
“I am on fire with the love of God
Does anyone need a light?
You can set your rubbish ablaze
From the fire within me”
Guess who I am voting for, next chance I get.I would rather vote BNP than Labour and the conservatives have nothing left to conserve.
well done ZAnulabour lets celebrate your multicultural shitholes like Blackburn,Bradford,Burnley……….not.
From the BNP website:
“The true extent of France’s frightening level of Islamification was revealed this week with the news that there are more practising Muslims in France than practising Catholics and that mosques are being built at 50 times the rate of Roman Catholic churches.
The total number of mosques in France has doubled to more than 2,000 during the past ten years, according to the research report ‘Constructing Mosques: The Governance of Islam in France and the Netherlands’.
France’s most prominent Muslim leader, Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Grand Mosque of Paris, recently called for the number of mosques in the country to be doubled again – to 4,000 – to meet ‘growing demand’.
Currently, nearly 150 mosques are under construction in France, which holds the dubious honour of being home to the biggest Muslim community in Europe.
In contrast, the Roman Catholic Church in France has built only twenty new churches in the past decade while formally closing 60 others, many of which are destined to become mosques, according to research conducted by Roman Catholic newspaper La Croix.
Although 64 percent of the French population (41.6 million of France’s 65 million inhabitants) identify themselves as Roman Catholic, only 4.5 percent (or 1.9 million) of those are actually practising Catholics, according to the French Institute of Public Opinion (Ifop).
By way of comparison, 75 percent (or 4.5 million) of the estimated 6 million mostly ethnic North African and sub-Saharan Muslims in France identify themselves as ‘believers’, and 41 percent (or 2.5 million) say they are ‘practising’ Muslims, according to a research report published by Ifop on 1 August. The report also states that more than 70 percent of the Muslims in France say they will be observing the Islamic holy month of Ramadan in 2011.
Soeren Kern, a prolific writer on Europe’s accelerating Islamification, said: ‘Taken together, the research data provides empirical evidence that Islam is well on its way to overtaking Roman Catholicism as the dominant religion in France.
‘As their numbers grow, Muslims in France are becoming far more assertive than ever before. A case in point: Muslim groups in France are now asking the Roman Catholic Church for permission to use its empty churches as a way to solve the traffic problems caused by thousands of Muslims who pray in the streets.
‘In a March 11 communiqué addressed to the Church of France, the National Federation of the Great Mosque of Paris, the Council of Democratic Muslims of France and a Muslim activist group called Collectif Banlieues Respect called on the Catholic Church – in a spirit of inter-religious solidarity, of course – to make its empty churches available to Muslims for Friday prayers, so that Muslims do not have to “pray in the streets” and be “held hostage to politics”.
‘Every Friday, thousands of Muslims in Paris and other French cities close off streets and sidewalks (and by extension, close down local businesses and trap non-Muslim residents in their homes and offices) to accommodate overflowing crowds for midday prayers. Some mosques have also begun broadcasting sermons and chants of “Allah Akbar” via loudspeakers in the streets.’
France ushered in Ramadan by inaugurating a new mega-mosque for 2,000 worshipers in Strasbourg, where the Muslim population has reached 15 percent. Construction also continues apace on a new mega-mosque in Marseille, France’s second-largest city, where the Muslim population has soared to 25 percent (250,000). The Grand Mosque – which at more than 92,000 square feet will accommodate up to 7,000 worshippers in a vast prayer hall – is designed to be the biggest and most potent symbol of Islam’s position in modern France.
Boubakeur justifies the unrelenting Islamification of France via the construction of even more mosques – paid for by French taxpayers – by claiming it relieves the ‘pressure, frustration and the sense of injustice’ felt by many French Muslims. Speaking in the French press, the influential Muslim was quoted as saying, ‘Open a mosque and you close a prison.’
Unfortunately for the Muslims and their globalist handlers, not all Frenchmen and women are taking the Islamic subjugation of their country lying down. According to an Ifop survey for the France-Soir newspaper, 40 percent of French voters agree with Front National leader Marine Le Pen’s view that Muslims represent an occupying force in France.
Another opinion poll, published by Le Parisien newspaper, shows that the electorate views Madame Le Pen as ‘the candidate best suited to deal with the growing problem of runaway Muslim immigration’, while incumbent president Nicolas Sarkozy continues to flounder, his popularity rating at 25 percent in July.
One can only hope that the rest of the native population of France also wake up to the exponential Islamic subjugation of their country, before it’s too late.”
RIP MULTICULTRALISM.
So what you are saying is that the majority of Muslims practice their faith while the majority of Catholics don’t – By that measure all that is needed is for the Catholics to go back to church and the problem will be solved – as there will then be 42 million Catholics, and only 4.5 million Muslims. Surely you cannot blame the Muslims for Catholic apathy
Its not my article Jimmy, but from the BNP site,having said that, any sane human being who belives in freedom and equality of the sexes,western values etc should think about what multicultralism is letting us in for:
The future is human face being stamped on by a burkha clad fascist.
but my argument still stands that what the article is pointing out is that the only reason the Islamic faith is becoming predominant is because the rest of France have stopped going to church. All that is needed for the Muslim faith to be a minority faith in France is for the rest of the population to go to Mass on a Sunday. As this is never going to happen then just compare the numbers of practising Muslims (2.5 million) to the number of practising Secularists (just under 40 million) and this puts things in a better perspective
What is really needed Jimmy is to cease all muslim immigration and mosque building,right across Europe.
Jimmy and Interested have it right. As Europeans become more “secular” or we could say lacking in spiritual direction, then the churches will be neglected and remain half-full or empty.
However, in France’s case, the Catholic Church has done itself no PR favours at all, firstly in the fact that it has for many years institutionally protected child-molesting priests and secondly with the fact that France (and the EU) has a state policy of separation of faith and state and indeed oppression of the individual’s right to express their faith or belief whether it is by the wearing of the hijab or the crucifix.
There is also the fact that Islam, unlike the Catholic Church, does not have a centralised hierarchical system of popes, cardinals, bishops and priests demanding absolute spiritual obedience from the faithful, a form of coercion, which does not sit well with some people in a society that promotes “doing your own thing” above all other considerations .
Islam does not have that sort of system and the onus is upon the individual and that individual’s personal relationship with God. The individual is seen to be held to account by God and not by men appointed by an institution as spiritual go-betweens between human beings and God.
Immigration might be a problem but in actual fact it is the result of 19th and 20th century colonialism coupled with a higher birthrate amongst Muslims in society than other sections of society as Islam does not condone abortion and there is (sometimes followed irresponsibly in my opinion) a fatalist tenet of the Islamic faith of “don’t worry God will provide”.
Paradoxically, in the case of Roman Catholics in this country, this was exactly their position in the past in comparison with the majority protestant members of society. This was highlighted satirically by Monty Python’s “Meaning of life” and their song “Every sperm is sacred”. This was certainly the case in the past and a typical stereotype of the practising Roman Catholic family unit.
However, many people who are born Roman Catholic nowadays are both intermarrying with those of other faiths or not adhering to their creed as they did in the past and therefore the birthrate amongst Catholics has fallen in line with the fall in the birthrate by large number of the population in general.
Owing to the low percentages of Muslims in the various European societies Islam and mosques are no threat to Europe at all. This article is just another BNP canard.
The fact that Muslims take their faith seriously and therefore require more places to pray doesn’t mean that they are taking over European society and they are certainly not enforcing their faith upon others. In fact many ordinary muslims, like myself, are a little sad that the vast majority of people who are nominally christian don’t practice their faith both spiritually or socially as IMHO I believe that society in general would be better for it.
If you don’t practice your own faith then you shouldn’t complain when others practice theirs.
For the record I despise the catholic church, its run by raging paedos,especially that poe cunt and the catholic church collaborated with the nazis.In fact there are many more paedos in the catholic chuch than any other organisation, including the labour party.
I beleive in a secular state and liberal western democracy, I hate all authoritarian ideologies,Islam,fascism,communism,PC etc.
I fear that the more islamic this country becomes the less free it will be,muslim countries are well known for their rigid authoritarian regimes etc.Its a very conservative value system.
Utimately I blame the pc brigade,they are the people I blame and thats zanulabour, who are the warts on myra hindleys gash
Geert Wilders is Jesus.
Whatever organisation you care to scrutinise, they will always have people who abuse power. am a Catholic – that does not mean that I condone paedophilia or any of the other atrocities that has been wrought in the name of Christianity – but it does mean that I have a faith that guides me and gives me hope. Most Muslims do not condone terrorism but they too have a faith that guides them and gives them hope. When you condemn my religion I feel that you are also condemning my personal faith which is why I take it personally.
I am also I suppose, a liberal and I uphold everyone’s right to believe what they wish; to have faith even in wearing pink frocks and yellow wellies. and I feel that to deny anyone the right to believe what they want is not humanitarian.
This country is not going to be taken over by Muslims there are not enough of them for a start, (about 6% of the population) We are not going to get Shariah law – we have a constitution – and a parliament full of people who have power already and do not want to lose it-
What someone believes, what sex they are, what someone’s sexual preference is, what the colour of someone’s skin is and whether they chose to wear yellow wellies, green wellies or polka dot pink ones, in a humanitarian world, it should not matter one bit – and that is the world I pray for. Is that such a bad thing?
“When you condemn my religion I feel that you are also condemning my personal faith which is why I take it personally”
Thats your choice Jimmy,( I am not condeming you at all and you know it!)if you wish to play the victim,fine but it doesnt wash,its the same thing that muslims do as well when you describe their prophet as a pedophile and terrorist.(which he was).
Its called free speech, condeming an ideology and the institution behind it,not believers like yourself,thats what I am simply doing.
As for Catholicism,I know what it did to my father.
I despise the catholic church,a body of vile cunts who once ran this country years ago,something the muslims would love to do today,given the chance.
Even the nazi youth pope said he wanted to catholicise Europe.
Its not enough for religious people to have their faith is it? They want evryone else to live by it, or in fact UNDER it.
ha ha ha VHVK your posts make me giggle! theres nothing like a bit of tact! lol! Tell it like it is! great reading, in fact everyone has some really good posts on this article (even if i dont agree with all of them)!!
I completely agree with your very last sentence, within two days of moving into my new home one of my neighbours (who hasnt spoken to us since) was at the door trying to turn me and my boyfriend (yes we’re living in sin) to johova!! (is that how you spell it?)
Geert Wilders is Jesus? Harold, it’s time you went back on the medication!
I know TT you are right,lol
Phil what is it about religious debates that gets people posting? Can we have one about BFC and how PNE are absolute shite?
I would agree with that – I want to buy the world a coke and Harold want to shoot everyone not wearing pink frocks and yellow wellies – we shall agree to differ and move on – GTF is he justified in wanting pay parity with other members of the squad or at his age should he be thankful for what he gets?
Jimmy theres nowt personal towards you or anyone else on here mate,honest, we all have different views on reigion,mine are probably the most OTT lol and thats good after all this is PHILTHEONE,the best site in the world for debates!
Victor, get the champagne out – we finally agree on something – this site is the best for debating
lol I like Tennets super, goes well with me brown bag and my Heinrich Himmler Jockstrap,lol
GTF’s been on fire and KO is a total knob-jockey!
“I go into the Muslim mosque and the Jewish synagogue and the Christian church and I see one altar.”
Rumi.