Feb 112012
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Philtheone.com
Right-leaning Blackpool blog covering South Shore, North Shore, Marton, Bispham, Cleveleys and the rest of the Fylde discussing politics, local life, tourism, national issues and the rest of the world. Lively discussions encouraged!
lol lol lol lol lol,lol lol lol lol,marvellous!!!
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“I’ll try and upgrade you to bipolar”…
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where did this come from? it sums up the scummy underclass pc infested culture thats been ‘grown’ over the last 14 or so years. superb!
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A kind reader emailed it me the other night!
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she need upgrading with a nice can of ZYKLON B lol,lol,lol.
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classic
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Laughed my head off after watching, just somes up some Blackpool residents perfectly,makes me angry when people think we owe them a living, no one should get money for doing fuck all, make them do voulantry work for the elderly or infirm, sums up some of the countrys finest. Dont know how she managed to keep a straight face and look so serious.
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yeah yeah yeah, it was really funny, so well done that i have reposted it to my facebook, but lets not get carried away – Less than 5,000 people, out of a population of 60 million, have been on Job Seekers Allowance for more than 5 years. Historically, whenever jobs get created, they always get filled. The idea that there is a vast horde of the work-shy is a myth. OK you may think that many of those 5,000 people live in Blackpool but I bet its only a couple of hundred -
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But Jimmy surely that’s because the ‘Doreens’ of this world aren’t on JSA, and would be daft if they were. Pregnant or single mother? Income support. Ditto with drug and alcohol de
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pendants. People hitting the jackpot by claiming DLA for easy to feign illnesses (hence ‘upgraded to bipolar’). Government nts have been massaging the stats for years by classing people unable to work who are perfectly damn able to work fine. And that’s more than just a few hundred in Blackpool.
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There is no denying that benefit fraud goes on and yes, the total across all benefits does amount to about £1.5 billion a year. However, £16 billion goes UNCLAIMED every year and meanwhile, the amount of tax lost through avoidance and evasion is about £120 billion a year. But we seem to be targeting the most vulnerable in our society.
My mum had Multiple Sclerosis – when she first started using her wheelchair she weighed about 9 stone by the time she died she weight about 18 stone due to both the side effects of the drugs she had to take and her condition rendering her unable to exercise. It grieves me when I hear people posting comments about the size of people who are in wheelchairs or use disability scooters. Most of them are NOT lazy overeating scroungers and I would rather some people get away with not being totally honest than see genuine people loosing out.
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Jimmy I dont believe that having a go at those who abuse the system to avoid work etc could possibly be offensive to anyone, I used work on DLA and its ripe for abuse.I just have personal experience of a rotten system,so noone is having a go at your mother on here.(that I know of).I am condeming a system that allows a lazy bastard I know to sit back and laugh whilst others have to work to keep him in 300 quid a week to play computer games every day.Very sorry to hear of your mothers plight.
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No maybe not on here, tonight, but people do make snap judgements about those who claim to be disabled and tend to label them all as malingerers especially the over weight ones but it is true these comments are usually in the Gazette and we do get a better class of reader on here (lol) my main point is that for every one person who is playing the system there are hundreds of genuine cases who are not and because there has been such hue and cry about the malingerers every genuine person is now going to lose out. It is obviously not fair that some people can get away with abusing the system but it is even more unfair for everyone to be tarred with the same brush and suffer the consequences
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fair points Jimmy,however if the system was overhauled and made more stringent, peoples confidence in it would improve and the likelihood of such judgements would decrease as a result,ditto for immigration but thats another BIG issue,lol.
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You’re right jimmy, but whenever stories about these mass benefit claimants arise, it generates incredible resentment of the system and those who participate in it. Lets face it, these stories are the only news about DLA (etc) that most people are exposed to, so they develop a particular opinion which tends to result in benefits bashing.
Nobody likes to see others get a free ride at their expense, save genuine claimants.
You mention £120bn of tax evasion, but surely if you are aware of it, the revenue will be?
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The tax gap is the difference between the tax in theory that should be collected by HMRC and what actually is collected and yes HMRC are aware of the problem – although they are only owning up to £35 billion in lost revenue – but like all self assessments you are never totally honest are you? – However they are closing down local offices and accompanying jobs so many people will have nowhere to turn even if they wanted to be totally honest in their dealing with HMRC and there is no one available to pursue the tens of billions of pounds in tax lost through the use of tax havens and evasion avoidance tactics by big corporations and the very wealthy. .
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Well they have staff available to pursue innocent football managers for small amounts. Why aren’t they going after the ones exploiting tax havens to avoid paying any?
People like, say, Philip Green…
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Apologies for the fragmented post.
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Thanks for putting it up Phil, glad everyone liked it !
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Indeed DLA is the key to a spongers paradise, especially with ‘disabled’ kids,I know of one idle bastard who uses his autistic kid to get 300 quid a week,whilst he sits on his arse smoking fags and drinking tea,he could do a 40 hour week like anyone else but refuses to learn atrade etc.When his kid was diagnosed with autism,he told me it was time to retire,hes sponging scum.
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Exactly Harold, I know of one lad who was disinterested at school, bit thick, misbehaved a bit, got diagnosed with ADHD, stopped goin to school and will never work. Got a kid, car, goes into town with his mates, but’ll never have a job cause he’s ‘disabled’. Also got a disabled relative who can’t work due to his condition, but volunteers at a charity shops etc when he can.
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I am sick of the PC disability lobby behind this,I have met 2 of these people who represent the “disabled”and christ if you complain about the system they label you as a nazi etc,their fanaticism is like nazism.I have no issue with genuine disabled people, I have a mate who has a wife who is proper disabled, he works, she works on a voluntray basis,but this other guy with an autistic kid is idle filth,he lives less than 200m from the school in a nicer house than mine (HB) yet gets LCC to pick the kid up and drop him off in a taxi!! I would have him whipped in the street and ‘ idle cunt branded on his face, I know of one woman who is a single parent and has a mongoloid child,nearly grown up,guess what? shes had another mongoloid kid,all thanks to the taxpayer and lets not forget the execrable POLLITTS,who are the vilest scum on earth.
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But you are a nazi!
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only against spongers like the pollits,yusufs etc and pc zanulabourites,lol,I dont hate jews etc.Horst Wessell is my friend,lol!
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People of Islam faith and catholic faith, travellers and migrants………
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Eh not quite John,clarification is needed.
Catholics, no problem,the pope and his establishment, yes,I hate him and his rotten paedo cronies.
Muslims, well Islamists, yes, scum of the earth,ordinary muslims who mind their own business, no problem, but I object to the influence of Islam as a religion on this countrys culture,ditto for any religion for that matter.PC brigade to blame, ie zanulabour etc.
Travellers, well not per se, but those that exploit the HR laws, abuse the planning laws,building without permission, not paying tax etc, yes, they are scum.
Migrants, those that work and contribute, I respect them.Those that abuse the system, well scum.Ultimately migrants arent the issue, its the failed policy of immigration, thats down to policy makers,in particular zanulabour who are super scum.
Hope that clears things,lol.
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Actually pretty clearly put Harold and I agree with you but you left out the EUSSR – you been taking your medication? lol
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yes I have sir, liquid cosh! lol well said about the EUSSR as well!
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The UK economy is likely to be declared in recession, according to professional services firm BDO, after a survey of companies’ turnover hopes fell for the eighth month in a row.
BDO’s Output Index slipped to 91.2 in January from 91.4 in December, where 95 indicates growth, which points to the overall economy contracting in the first three months of the year, after it shrank in the last quarter of 2011 by 0.2%.
A recession is two consecutive quarters of economic decline.
I would like to thank Osborne,Cameron and Clegg for believing in Doreen and giving SO many more people the chance to live the benefit lifestyle.
People accuse labour of being the party of the scrounger clearly the unemployment figures would give an indication that it is the Tory party who are creating a generation of Doreens.
Just to clarify record unemployment figures equals record benefit claimants…. I know some Tory voters struggle with this concept even though they are all such good economists.
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More rubbish cardy, benefits scroungers vote Labour because Labour is the party of state reliance. Nothing in it for the Tories to cultivate a benefits culture.
Had Labour not fucked the economy and allowed casino banking, none of this would be happening. You can quote all the figures you want but it all boils down to the same thing: Labour.
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FACT high unemployment means more claimants. Are you disagreeing with the BDO?
After the last recesssion we had falling unemployment and growth FACT another thing the Tory party have managed to turn around.
I believe you like facts Phil well there are a few for you to mull over
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I didn’t disagree with you, but you sought to blame the Tory party, and they are not to blame. What I will say is that people are cheaper sat around on benefits than sat around in the public sector.
Germany is an economic powerhouse with one of the world’s largest manufacturing bases. They saw two years of growth following the financial crisis. It’s interesting to note that they too are heading for recession in 2012 according to Deutsche Bank.
What’s your explanation?
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Quote from Philtheone who appears to be in favour of more Dooreen’s…..What I will say is that people are cheaper sat around on benefits than sat around in the public sector.
Is this the new Tory policy? Its working well or not as the case may be.
As for Germany they do get more snow than us,no Royal wedding,no Olympics…… So it was inevitable that they would have a recession we on the other hand have the olympics and a Queens jubilee to look forward to. Camercon has stated this will be of real benefit to the UK.
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Statement of fact cardy. People are cheaper on benefits than in non jobs in the public sector. Not policy. Statement of fact.
Let me get this straight, you think one day for Wills & Kate getting married (a day where everyone was off work), a Queens jubilee (where everyones off work) and a couple of weeks of an athletics tournament in London should have staved off a recession?
The Olympics? Seriously? Surely that’s an argument against everything you have said, given the £24bn it is set to cost!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092077/London-2012-Olympics-cost-spiral-24bn–10-TIMES-higher-2005-estimate.html
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http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/national/welfare-reform-why-thanks-liblabcons-we-need-it
Good article about the welfare state from the BNP.
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Now on a more serious note is it right to condem people when there are very few jobs out there at the moment? If we had jobs for everyone then I would agree about scroungers,however there are not the jobs and so we end up with the problems we are now seeing. Create employment and the problem will disappear.
The trouble with tarring all with the same brush is that people who are genuinely in need of help get tarred with the same brush.This in my opinion is unfair and totally goes against the principles of what has made this country great. If we want to go back to the good old days where working class families lived in slums and had nothing (I include myself in that bracket and probably the vast majority of posters on here) then that says a lot about ourselves. Those days were not such a long time ago we have come a long way in a short space of time.
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There are jobs out there cardy. I’ve just gone on the Job Centre website and done a search for jobs in FY1, and 250 jobs were listed.
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Its the families like the pollits, yusufs,mgrawleys etc who are protected,if you are single or married without kids its a nightmare, I agree,but have a ‘disabled’ kid and its the jackpot.These cunts keep breeding as well,they are the ones who should get no money.
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Well done Phil and just how many unemployed are there in the Town? How many people does that mean are chasing every job?
So if we have 250 jobs then the rest of the people claiming benefits cannot be scroungers as there are not the jobs for them to do.
Well done Phil you have given the Doreems of this country the perfect defence!!!
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Eh? You can get DLA whether or not you work.
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Yes. Phil’s right. I was very ill up until a few years ago and I was on benfits including DLA.
Now I work again and I DON’T claim DLA although I am entitled to it as I have disabilities. I personally don’t believe that I should be claiming when I am working and earning circa 35K a year.
However, the benefits system was there when I needed it and that is how it should be and I don’t have any hangups about having used the system as I have spent my adult life paying into it.
The problem I have is with the people who feign real illness and who have never paid into our system yet use it to the hilt to the detriment of the people who really need it.
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Phil I knew when I wrote the original post that you or one of the Tory voters would go running to the job centre website and quote how many jobs there were available,that is how predictable some people are when trying to justify a point. The fact is many of the people claiming JSA cannot find work as there is not enough work out there,this does not make them scroungers.
Are you accusing Doctors of fiddling the system? As I see it these people have been assessed by a Doctor and can be called in to be checked by other Government doctors. This is rather a serious alligation to be making and would result in those doctors facing disciplinary measures.
Dla is there to give people with a disability a helping hand to get the things they need to do the day to day things we take for granted.
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Nah, merely stating that you don’t need to be unemployed to claim DLA, which is a fact as TT testifies.
When talking about the lack (or not) of jobs, you’re right, the Tory voters (ie the ones who work for a living to pay for all the spongers) would look at the job centre; you know, the place where jobs are advertised. You, on the other hand, bleat your quasi-socialist clap-trap about how the unemployed are victims and how a one year VAT cut will solve everything and how the government should borrow shit loads of money to create tons of highly paid jobs4life complete with gold plated luxury retirement schemes which unfortunately for the country is Labour’s solution. But according to Ed Miliband, he supports the Tory cuts, so I am not sure how he’s going to fuel his artificial boom when Cameron loses the next election.
Anyone would think Ed Miliband was in hibernation the last 5 years. Oh wait, no, he was part of the mad borrowing machine that set Britain’s economy back decades.
Complain about JSA all you want, but the fact is that there are jobs available.
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This the problem when people take a snap point of economic policy and applies this to all points and create economic policies from it. Phils grasp of economics are not as strong as it could be the 70s showed how potentially a Labour party can run a economy and how GB could still have a industry like Germany if Maggie didn’t decide she didn’t want it.
Phil “ benefits scroungers vote Labour because Labour “ is this statement true? Well according to electoral studies long term benefit claimants don’t vote. It is a fact that benefit culture began with the last Troy government who placed people on the DLA system and took them of unemployment figures.
Cardy “Are you accusing Doctors of fiddling the system? “ well I would say that when a standard of disability has put people on DLA that standard is the bench mark so it is easier to get on DLA. Once you are on DLA then it is a gateway benefit which allows you access to all other types, so if you make it easy to get a foot in the door (which a troy government did) then the tax payers are screwed.
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I wasn’t born in the 70′s john, but I do know that Labour had to go to the IMF in the 70′s and were only saved by a new money ‘boom’ from oil. If Labour were doing so well in the 70′s, why did the country vote them out?
Perhaps the Tories did create DLA, but I’m still against the abuse of it, and would prefer a system which only provided benefits to those who genuinely needed them.
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Phil again a snap shot of economic view and economic history why did the Labour government go to the IMF? Was it to do with the floating of the pound done by the conservative government did the oil prices drive the need for the loan. The fact they Labour government took a agreed loan 3.9 bill but only took 2.9 bill because of how well the economy was growing the fact the the government control price rises and the fact the GB industry where in a growth period the fact that economist across the world all pointed to the late 70 GB economic model and policies as the model to follow suggest the government of the day were very successful at managing the economy. Why they were voted out was because democracy doesn’t judge governments on how well they are doing the job if the government of the time went to election before the winter of discontent it was predicted they would have romped home, perception is everything.
“ Perhaps the Tories did create DLA, but I’m still against the abuse of it, and would prefer a system which only provided benefits to those who genuinely needed them.” agree with you 100%. we should know our history and make sure we don’t make the same mistake again and again and again, by blaming Labour for the DLA shithole you are missing the route cause of why it is happening.
When you say that it is cheaper to have people on benefits then none jobs is this really true long term? Governments should cut back overall spending in times of true growth and increase overall spending in time of recession but no government in a boom period do.
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Not sure I blamed Labour for DLA, but I stand by the point that those on benefits have a greater tendency to vote for the party that will keep them in benefits rather than the party that will cut them.
It’s the same chain of thought which applies to public sector workers voting Labour, and I don’t think you will disagree that most public sector workers do vote for them.
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NOT me, lol UKIP/BNP,but its probably true they vote for zanuliebour.
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I don’t think you can forgive the Labour party for their ability (or lack of it) to tackle the benefit culture after all they were in power long enough. But am I convinced that the Conservatives are going to tackle the benefit culture I feel the answer is no. I do think the the welfare bill will drop but I don’t think this automatically links to stopping the benefit culture, for example the middle classes are going to lose the child benefits (this does stop benefit culture because non workers are still getting it) the conservatives are going to cap money paid to people for housing benefits, all this means they will stay on benefits but in a cheaper area of London (not stopping benefit culture), all the above will reduce the welfare bill but wont touch the benefit culture. I don’t see the benefit culture being tackled by this government the same reason why they are not going to take on the big tax dodgers, its just to difficult (or in case of some of the tax dodgers perhaps they are looking at future job opportunities)
I do agree with you if people who live on benefits vote they may well vote labour but they don’t vote so it unimportant. As for public sector workers do you count the police in this, NHS votes run around 40% conservatives (this doesn’t mean 60% vote labour that’s only just under 50%).
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And it’s not just the benefits themselves, scandalously abused as they are, but it’s the climate and dependency culture that they create. As phil noted, there are 250 Jobs in Fy1, but why would you go to the hardship of doing a job of work when for more money you can lie in bed of a morning and leech off the government. Also, how much goes on the public sector support of their client state? How much do these people cost in housing, benefit processing, support workers, police time spent dealing with their petty crime? How much does the average Springboard fily cost? Wrecked your house? Not paid your rent? Landlord kicking you out? Go down the council and three or four professionals will sort you out. This is where all the money goes and why the Doreen’s are such a drain on the economy.
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well said Sir,zanulabour fostered the expansion of the underclass,Jeremy Kyle likes labour cos they gave him scum to make a tv programme out of.My message to the pollits and yusufs: ARBEIT MACHT FREI!
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With regard to this being a good year for the country because of the olympics and the jubilee this was not my opinion but that of the Prime Minister…..
Borrowing where are all the billions coming from for the quantative easing?
If benefits are being capped at £26k just how much does the average civil servant earn in Blackpool?
I cannot believe someone like yourself is advocating a society of spongers
” What I will say is that people are cheaper sat around on benefits than sat around in the public sector.”
You clearly didnt think that statement through!!
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the money does have to come from anywhere for QE – essentially the Bank of England just print more notes although these days it is all done electronically so the money is virtual money which the government use to buy assets – usually financial assets such as government and corporate bonds – using this money it has simply created out of thin air, these institutions now how money to invest which should boost the economy and then when the crisis is over the government sell the bonds and closes its virtual account. there is a nice graphic here explaining it better than me
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15198789
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that should read does NOT have to come from anywhere
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No cardy, it’s a statement of something I believe to be true. I in no way endorsed it, as you well know. It’s not my ‘policy’ or any of that other drivel.
As for your comment about civil servants, I would guess the average full time one in Blackpool, including pension contributions, is on more than £26k. Before you start your minority victim rhetoric, yes there are lollipop ladies and caretakers but there are also teachers on almost £100k and plenty of doctors on more than that.
I disagree entirely with Cameron with respect to the Olympics and the other stuff, but it was you who used this as your bizarre reason for manufacturing powerhouse Germany heading into recession. “They don’t have an Olympics or Jubilee or Royal Wedding, hence.. ”
If you now deny that, then why is Germany heading into recession, given that its economy is so strong that it’s basically keeping the whole of Europe going? Why has the IMF hinted that the whole of Europe will be in recession in 2012?
Don’t try and pretend Britain is a special case and that everything can be pinned on Cameron!
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Most of the western world is going into recession that’s not what we should look at it is what countries will come out of the recession strongest. Historically the counties with lower unemployment do compared to countries with high unemployment. This is what I mean when I ask if in the long term is it cheaper to pay people in non jobs (as you say phil I could argue that no job is a non job) or pit them on benefits?
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teachers on 100k? they are few and far between – for example our recently retired headmaster of over 25 years had a final salary of 65k – so where do you get your figures from lad?
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Ok, hands up, a bit of hyperbole there. Knock 20 grand off and you’re closer to the mark though (remember they get lots of pension contributions on top of their publicised salary).
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after seeing newsnight last night, I am glad labour arent in power, greece is gonna implode,truly terrible.
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Why compare us to Greece Harold? Keep believing the Tory hype we unlike Greece can afford to pay our debt the question is over the period of time to repay the debt. As we have seen Camercon via the Bank of England is pumping billions into the economy to stimulate growth its a shame he didnt get this done sooner as labour wanted. Now this looks like a panic measure and gives off signals that we really are in trouble. Is this quantative easing the start of plan B? Probably and this money will hamper the deficit reduction plan as will the 80,000 more unemployed who instead of contributing to the system are now taking out. I dont see how high unemployment helps the country but Phil and Camercon would rather see people on the dole than in non- jobs. The cost of these non jobs (average workers) as they call them is probably less than what they could recieve on the dole
Grade
National Minimum*
National Maximum*
London Minimum*
London Maximum*
Administrative Assistant
14,505
15,977
18,345
20,215
Assistant Officer
17,580
19,724
21,323
23,892
Officer
22,669
26,227
26,094
30,331
The higher figures are for London clearly its better for someone to get 26k sat on their backside at home.These are ordinary civil servants and not managers here is the link http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/jobs/salaries.htm so you can check out the figures for yourselves.Dont forget the person would also be paying tax and NI on these figures
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Since you love facts, let me give you one. JSA is £67.50 a week for over 25′s, which is significantly less than all of the above (~£3,500 p.a.)
As such it’s not cheaper to have people in a non job.
By the way, I don’t class admin jobs as non jobs, I class diversity officers, BID retail support managers, Gay, Lesbian and Transgender co-ordination managers and suchlike as non jobs.
Tax and NI, yeah, but they’re only giving back a bit of the taxpayers money they were paid and incurring a NI cost for the employer too. Public sector workers always return a net loss to the exchequer.
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“By the way, I don’t class admin jobs as non jobs, I class diversity officers, BID retail support managers, Gay, Lesbian and Transgender co-ordination managers and suchlike as non jobs”
spot on Phil, and they are zanulabour jobs!
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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24033663-200-london-headteachers-earn-more-than-pound-100000-a-year.do
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Starting salary
Once you have completed your initial teacher training (ITT) and achieved qualified teacher status (QTS), you can expect to start as a newly qualified teacher (NQT) in England and Wales on £21,588 a year (or £27,000 if you work in inner London).
Main pay scale including NQTs:
•London fringe: £22,626 to £32,588
•Outer London: £25,117 to £35,116
•Inner London: £27,000 to £36,387
•Rest of England and Wales: £21,588 to £31,552
Slightly more than the benefit cap Phil heres the link
http://www.tda.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/pay-and-benefits.aspx
Its always better if you back up your opinion with facts Phil!!! Rather than Tory hype
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What’s your point?
It’s cheaper to pay someone maximum JSA than to pay them £26k p.a. plus pension plus cost of overheads to sit on their arse doing fuck all.
That was my point.
I wasn’t referring to teachers as non jobs, but since you mention them, most teachers are not ‘newly qualified’, and I note that you have excluded the 20% or whatever the government pays them in addition which goes towards their gold plated pension. You have also excluded the upper threshold for teachers (teachers meeting certain levels of excellence can advance to a higher pay scale), Advanced Skills teachers, leadership group teachers and headteachers from your table there.
Let me add them (these are for outside London):
Post-threshold teacher – £34,181 to £36,756 (+ gold plated pension + million weeks holiday)
Advanced skills teacher – £37,461 to £56,950 (+ gold plated pension + million weeks holiday)
Leadership group teacher – £37,461 (minimum) (+ gold plated pension + million weeks holiday)
Headteacher – £42,379 to £105,097 (+ gold plated pension + million weeks holiday)
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You forgot to mention rent allowance, council tax allowance or mortgage interest payments,free prescriptions,dental care and glasses all these need to go onto the £67. If it were just £67 a week I would agree with you but in all cases this is just the lowest cost to the tax payer and the figures are significantly closer than you are making out
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Rent allowance for a 35 year old single is £93 a week add £67 to that is £160 or £8320 per annum without council tax benefit or the other benefits mentioned
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I would genuinely be interested to see what the benefits breakdown is if someone’s on the dole and how much it really costs.
Free prescriptions etc wouldnt necessarily add anything to the tab, but obviously housing benefit and other stuff would. I don’t know what the qualifying criteria for all that is though.
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Its very difficult to say who will get what on the dole but let us presume that the government has sacked a civil servant (because they are) and lets presume this civil servant is on 18K a year, now phil claims its cheaper having these on the dole (but in all fairness phil admits he doesn’t know what you can claim so he doesn’t know for sure) is it, even in the short term, true?
Phils says it £67 a week dole money so 3484 a year.
Now you don’t pay council tax (should we say) 120 £1200 a year.
So if your are unemployed you do get mortgage relief for a least two years (or so I am told lets say) £320 a month £3840 a year.
Lets say the civil servant has a child so no need to pay for school meals £360.
|Child tax credit not sure of this but could say £2000.
so if we add these up $11 K or there about or a saving if £7K a year well not true is it you do have to lose about £4K on tax an NI but still 3K a year. Well no not true most civil servants will walk away with a year wage so in the first year we down 15K so six years until the government breaks even. Now my figures can be out but I would suggest that they are close to truth because this would explain why the government expenditure is greater then they predicted which doesn’t fill you with a lot of confidence in the government.
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Employees of the state dont actually pay tax and ni, its a notional payment, not an actual cashflow.
Only the private sector actually pays paye tax and ni as a cash flow, thats right Phil?
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The government take tax and NI from civil servants so in the case above it has to be taken of the civil servant wage.
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The civil servants wage comes from taxation,they dont create wealth like the private ector.
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What’s that got to do with it being cheaper for people to be on the dole?
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I thought that would be obvious John,lol.
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“The civil servants wage comes from taxation,they dont create wealth like the private sector.”
**RANT ON **
I recently sat (and seethed) through a propaganda session from our senior management on the NHS’s “partnerships” with companies in the private sector like Capita etc in regard to the provisioning of IT services.
According to this week’s party-line we are to:
“provide the best possible service whilst providing opportunities for our partners to make profit” (paraphrased)
The NHS is a nonprofitmaking government body which delivers a health service free at the point of delivery and the department I work for provides some business and IT services to the NHS in order for the NHS to provide those health services more efficiently. That’s the aim in theory but in practice it is very, very different, partly because of our “partners” and partly because of political dogma and the NHS’s management.
We were told that companies like Capita et al save the NHS 50 million pounds a year by providing IT and other services to us. We weren’t actually given any data to back up that premise (wave your pom-poms and believe what the commissar tells you) but from actually being on the frontline, so to speak, I see our “partners” on a daily basis milking the NHS like a cash cow for many millions of pounds.
However, the problem can be encapsulated in the fact that NHS management is poor. Piss poor.
When they negotiate contracts with companies like Capita, Cap Gemini et al and owing to the fact that the particular negotiating team consists of “time-served” NHS politicos who know all the buzzwords, kiss the right arses but couldn’t find their arses with both hands and a map, the “partner” organisation runs rings around them and takes them commercially to the fucking cleaners.
At the same time, owing to “austerity measures” and “reorganisation” those who can actually do the job in the IT sphere and have an in-depth business knowledge are either made redundant or off-loaded cheaply to our “partners” as part of an outsourcing exercise.
Cheaply in that qualified and experienced IT professionals (in many cases trained up at the NHS’s i.e. the taxpayer’s expense) are simply transferred over to the private sector organisation. Thus strengthening the “partner’s” human resource at the expense of the NHS and the taxpayer.
Please note that “non-jobs” are not outsourced so the NHS is left with a bunch of one-legged, Welsh-speaking, Somali-pirate, transexual lesbian diversity officers and “Greenhouse gas in the enterprise sustainability” managers or whatever and there’s nobody left who can actually do a proper job.
It’s obscene, it truly is and I’ve observed this on a daily basis for the past couple of years.
It’s a gang-fuck and all taxpayer’s are paying for it. I shit you not!
**RANT OFF**
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No it’s not Harold
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Most civil servants are on much more money than that though john, and you’ve added extra goodies in there such as redundancy payouts and children to boost your figures. I understand there are some child related payments you get whether you work or not, too, so lets take kids out of it for now.
Since we are comparing ‘running costs’, it’s also unfair to include any redundancy payouts which I think you included there.
According to the PCS union, average civil servant pay is £23k. They would pay about £5000 of that in NI and tax, leaving a net loss to the treasury of £18k, or £1500 per month.
But it’s probably a bit more if you factor in the pension; a 19-22% notional contribution from the government which gets paid out at some point and knock off 3.5% from salary deductions. So add about 15% on to that £1500 pcm and you have £1725 pcm net loss to treasury, possibly much more depending on how long the employee draws their pension.
According to the PCS, only 7% of civil servants are on £15k (+ pension) or less.
http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/facts-about-civil-and-public-services/
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40% of civil servants are on 15K-20K a year most of the civil servants being made redundant are AA and AO the lowest two groups. These two groups would easily fall into the 40% wages between 15K-20K so taking a figure of 18K is not unreasonable. You are saying that as soon as you make a civil servant unemployed the government saves 18K, but you seem to be forgetting benefits these people will get. I will grant you 6 years is wrong or at least on the high side but the general principal is correct or why is the government spending figures so wrong. The same thing happened in the 80s history should teach us in time of recession throwing people out of work isn’t the answer.
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I wonder who was stupid enough to thumbs down my last post the fact is JSA as Phil states is £67 rent allowance for a person over 35 is £92.97 ish which works out at £8320. The criteria for rent allowance is simple if you are unemployed claiming JSA or any other relevent benefit and have less than £6000 in the bank you get the maximum rent and council tax benefits for your age. On top of that figure you can add £750 minimum for council tax benefit so roughly £9k a year These are for a single person when that person has children the numbers jump up accordingly.
If you put 20% on that figure which is less tax and NI which you would be paying if in employment and the figure comes out at just short of 11k.
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just as a matter of interest i read in the paper today that many high earners in the Health Service have set themselves up as limited companies and have their salaries paid to said business therefore not paying tax or national insurance on whatever money they get.
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It’s a joke, jimmy, they are piss takers doing that. All of them found to be dodging tax like that should be sacked.
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but my point is that while everyone is targeting the so called scroungers – and in reality there are very few long term unemployed who are milking the system – if you look around when a new shop opens up, or a new business or the season starts most jobs are filled within days – most unemployed people ARE living on the poverty line – people like the Health Service Execs or big businesses (I give you the Vodafone debacle) are getting away with milking the systems for billions and no one does anything or says anything. Why are we targeting the most vulnerable, the least able to defend themselves? Why are there no satirical videos about how to dodge your tax obligations? Our priorities are wrong – rant over-
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There probably are such videos jimmy, and I task you to find them for me!
I think it’s unfair to say ‘the most vulnerable’ are being targeted. I think a common theme on this thread states that benefits should be there for those who need them.
But people are pissed off at people like Doreen, as well as pissed off at firms like Diageo (2% corp tax), Arcadia (no tax paid by owner on dividends), Walkers (based in Switzerland), Cadburys (Switzerland), Boots (Switzerland, 3% corp tax),…
…and Vodafone.
But if you hammer these firms for the full tax, they will say hey, we have to sack the corresponding number of workers to make up the loss!
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There are also issues with footballers who have percentages of their salaries paid into offshore accounts for ‘image rights’. Totally legal, but is it tax dodging?
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But if you hammer these firms for the full tax, they will say hey, we have to sack the corresponding number of workers to make up the loss!
Would they are there so many workers doing nothing in these companies that they can be sacked and not affect the companies’ performance?
Totally legal, but is it tax dodging?
Yes it is tax avoidance but is all forms of tax avoidance a crime?
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tax avoidance isnt a crime,tax evasion is,tax avoidance is what a good tax accountant does for his/her client.
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Not sure why you added that 20% for tax and NI, cardy.
From your figures, you’ve got ((92.97 + 67.50)*52) + 750 which gives you £9094.44 as the cost of someone on benefits, plus the eye tests, prescriptions, dentists bills, etc. John reckons you get £320 pcm for mortgage interest relief for two years which puts the bill at just under £13,000, but that only applies if the person actually has a mortgage.
Housing benefit would be a similar amount, but if the authority owns the property, housing benefit can be said to be notional because they’re giving it out then taking it straight back (as HB is paid directly to landlords as I understand it). Obviously you have to include it if the person lives in private rented.
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My point was that this figure of approx £9k is a figure that if you put income tax and ni contributions onto it comes out at about 11k. minimum wage works out at £12,646 at the current rate of £6.08 per hour from this these people have to pay council tax. Would it not be better to create jobs for these people cleaning whatever (non jobs) rather than paying them to sit on their backsides?
I dont think their is a cap on the amount of mortgage interest relief either… could be wrong but this figure would be very low for someone in london for example
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There is, it’s £200k.
Its an interesting point you make actually. I agree it would be better to create minimum wage jobs than have people on benefits, and it just goes to show that with a few extra benefits like DLA or whatever, you can be earning more than a minimum wage job.
That said we are talking more about jobs paying twice this amount.
7% civil servant earn 15k or less
34% between 15k and 20k
22% between 20-25k
37% more than 25k.
Plus 19-22% extra pension contributions of course.
PCS figures – http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/news_and_events/facts-about-civil-and-public-services/
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Your figures are rather interesting Phil according to what you are saying only 37% of civil servants are earning more than the proposed cap of £26k for benefit claimants. If this is correct would it not be wise to use the same scenario with minimum wage workers and creating jobs?I could argue that in principle you were ok with creating jobs for benefit claimants so why not protect the jobs of those under £26k as this is the amount it could cost the tax payer per annum for no return?
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You’re assuming that everyone on benefits is claiming £26k+ though, and they aren’t.
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