IT HAS been an interesting last few weeks in the local media. No, not with the Gazette but the Fleetwood Weekly News (FWN). I had no idea of this until someone gave me a copy of the paper to read, and upon observing the letters page I discovered that a thermonuclear war of words has been taking place between Wyre Borough Councillor Don MacNaughton and Derek Squires, a Fleetwood resident whom I would describe as a Fleetwood nationalist.
The spat mainly concerns the reopening of the railway to Burn Naze (rather than to Fleetwood) and the role of the Poulton and Wyre Railway Society. Councillor MacNaughton claims there is a vision involving the reopening to Fleetwood, Derek contests this and questions the role of PWRS. Alas, the letters are not online so I have had to type them out in full. Sorry for the length, but I feel its right to view the full exchange in order to get a grip of the situation.
We kick off with the original article by PWRS in FWN about rail restoration.
Funding which could lead to an extra platform at a Fylde coast train station has been secured.
Lancashire County Council has promised to release £15,000 towards a grip survey, costing £30,000, which will assess the feasibility of a new line and platform at Poulton station.
It is part of plans for a railway line between Poulton and Fleetwood stopping at Carleton, Thornton and Burn Naze.
But proposals for the much anticipated line came to a halt while county councillors deliberated on whether the funding was available.
And despite Wyre Council pledging the other £15,000, the Poulton and Wyre Railway Society were forced to wait.
But this week it was announced funding for the “vital” survey will be released.
Coun Don MacNaughton, chairman of Wyre Council’s Rail Link Task Group, said: “It is vital frankly, we were at a hold until we could get that survey done.
“We can’t get the line into Poulton until it a feasibility study has been carried out.
“Another factor is the line through Poulton is going to be electrified and if we don’t have regard to that there could be physical alterations made to the line which would make it impossible or very expensive for us in the future.
“We know it is possible to have another line through Poulton, there used to be an Isle of Man platform taking people to the Isle of Man steamers.
“But this survey will make sure every box is ticked and will look at electrification and signalling.”
Coun MacNaughton said residents could expect to see a new platform from where a shuttle service to Burn Naze would run in the next two years.
He said: “Initially the railing stock may not be up to main line standards and Northern Rail will not even let rolling stock like that touch their own metal.
“So we will be looking at a local service with frequent stops along the way so a maximum number of people can benefit from it.
“Two years is probably the earliest we could expect to see any work at the station, but this is a huge step forward.
“I’m meeting with National Rail next week to hopefully find out when the survey will start.”
ICBM 1
Resident Derek Squires responded to the article on March 28th, 2012.
Your recent article about restoring the rail link raises questions. The railway made Fleetwood and if it can be restored properly, will give it a much needed and deserved rebirth. The main question here is one of suitability.
Firstly: Are PWRS the right people to reopen a railway? And is there really an intention to reopen the line to Fleetwood? What about the bridge at Jameson road? No details about that have been mentioned. Surely it would cost millions to do so and without that being addressed, the railway will go nowhere. It will simply stop at Burn Naze which seems to be the current plan, in fact the ONLY plan. On another note, where would any future station in Fleetwood be situated? The old sites have been built upon; is there any suitable location near to the town centre? Or will the new station be so far out that a bus service be needed? It’s a pity that the station could not form an interchange with the new trams, or even better with the ferry terminal and docks as that would turn round Fleetwood’s fortunes forever.
I am of the opinion that Fleetwood will lose out if not enough influence is exerted in this process by Fleetwood councillors. It’s clear that PWRS want that line to go to Burn Naze and play trains, via a Heritage option whilst Fleetwood loses out.
Previous letters in the local press show that there’s justified opposition to and criticism of PWRS I find it insult to a town that once boasted 2 rail stations and a national connection that a group like this should be allowed control of such an important economic asset. Moreover, is it right and fair that Fleetwood ratepayers should pay towards a rail link that they will never benefit from, allowing PWRS to play “Heritage” trains at THEIR expense? The answer surely is: NO.
ICBM 2
Don MacNaughton replied on 5th April, 2012.
A letter from Derek Squires published in your March 28th edition casts doubt on the intentions of the Poulton & Wyre Railway Society (PWRS). The letter was with regard to the reopening of the (currently) disused railway from Poulton to Fleetwood, and in particular their willingness to push the line northwards from Burn Naze to Fleetwood.
Let me assure him that Wyre Council’s Area Action Plan for the regeneration of the Thornton to Fleetwood corridor calls for the re-opening of the railway for both passengers and freight all the way through to Fleetwood. This remains and will remain our ultimate goal. It is a tragedy that Fleetwood has become the largest town in England without a railway, and we are keenly aware of the damage to Fleetwood caused by poor tarnsport links. To that end, Wyre Council intends to take ownership and control of the line and whilst working in partnership with other stakeholders (including the PWRS) will oversee the phased re-opning of the railway along its full length.
The intial phase will be a “shuttle service” from Burn Naze to Poulton because the existing track is in good condition but we have no intention of stopping there. We do not underestimate the engineering (and funding) problems involved but these will be addressed and the railway will return to Fleetwood.
ICBM 3
Derek’s reply came a week later:
Thank you to Don MacNaughton for replying to my letter (FWN April 5th). Unfortunately it doesn’t quite deal with the core issue of control and it neglects to mention the principal stakeholder in this affair: the people of Fleetwood.
Regrettably, it does refer to one stakeholder: PWRS. The core issue of my letter referred to the role of PWRS in the reopening of the railway. Don himself, as well as other former PWRS members, have levelled serious criticism of PWRS objectives for a heritage operation which is in conflict with public wants and needs: a commuter operation. An already discredited PWRS have a clapped out old shunter, a wreck of a carriage and a few scraps of railway memorabilia. PWRS will be relying exclusively on taxpayers money for their purposes.
Consider this, the line reopens to Burn Naze; it will almost certainly run at a loss, compared to a Fleetwood connection, as the demand would not be there to make it sustainable. What then? Running at a loss makes it harder to acquire further investment to complete it to Fleetwood, which will require many millions more. Outcome? Game set and match to PWRS. The line remains at Burn Naze and they gain control.
Can Don McNaughton give a guarantee, a legal and financial framework that the line will never fall into the hands of PWRS? Will he come off the ‘PWRS picket fence’ and state categorically that the commuter option is the only way forward and PWRS will never have control of that line? If he can’t, then the people of Fleetwood have every right to be concerned as PWRS are only one step from gaining control, which surely means the people of Fleetwood can look forward to many more years of council created congestion whilst PWRS play trains at their expense.
ICBM 4
Don replied on the 18th April, 2012
Derek Squires’ letter published in your April 11th issue raises further “concerns” about the (currently) disused Flleetwood Railway, despite my letter (published a week eralier) which gave assurances about the Wyre Council’s intention to re-open the line all the way to Fleetwood.
Instead, he suggests with no evidence that an intial shuttle-service from Burn Naze to Poulton would run at a loss, and this would somehow make it more difficult to re-open the rest of the route to Fleetwood, leaving the line in the hands of the PWRS, who he thinks are only interested in a Heritage operation.
As I have said before, running one or two steam engines up and down a mile or so of isolated track is not going to regenerate Fleetwood. The council’s vision far surpasses a small scale train set and I would (again) draw his attention to the Area Action Plan for the Thornton-Fleetwood corridor and indeed to the Council’s Core Strategy – currently out for public consultation – which specifically mention the railway from Poulton to Fleetwood and our intention to re-open the line. I realise thet Mr Squires is following a political agenda which calls for him to bash Wyre council at every opportunity, so he will choose not to accept my assurances, but I trust that the fair-minded majority of your readers will do so.
Analysis
Personally I think Don is a good bloke; hes one of the few councillors to recognise the transport problems but on this occasion he’s come unstuck. He’s failed to give a much needed assurance on the role of PWRS whom he and many others have criticised in the past. Such an assurance would have helped remove the uncertainty surrounding rail reinstatement. Yes there is a vision but NO specific plan (unless someone has one, in which case please can they provide it?) He may be right that no evidence has been supplied to say that the line to Burn Naze wouldn’t be profitable but he hasnt provided any evidence to say that it would be profitable either.
Consider this nightmare scenario to which Derek Squires refers. As part of the electrification process the link will be severed at Poulton. Money will have to be raised to reinstate that link and in addition it’s very hard to see how a rail service from Burn Naze would be profitable since it is an industrial estate: where would the demand for such a railway come from? Again, I have seen no facts and figures, so if anyone has them please feel free to provide them.
The result is that the money dries up or cant been made available (due to the line not being profitable, public funding issues, etc) and the line then falls into the hands of PWRS who pay a lease to use it. This would be a MASSIVE disaster. Cllr Don’s failure to provide an assurance or guarantee that such situation wont happen due to WBC’s commitment to a commuter option is very telling and worrying. Instead he has a go at Mr Squires, accusing him of following a political agenda!? Is this Mr Squires a Labour or town councillor? I cant find anybody of that name. Don avoids what is being asked of him, the role of PWRS in all of this affair and contol of the line in the event it stays at Burn Naze.
Don talks of ultimate goals and visions, of reinstatement to Fleetwood but how many years or decades is that? Meanwhile PWRS get the line for their heritage use, so is that fair to taxpayers? These are the issues Derek talks of and I agree with him.
I have no doubt PWRS would love to get that line for their use but that cannot be alllowed to happen as it is not in the public interest, especially as they have very little in the means to run a rail service. This has been said many many times before.
The Area Action Plan Don talks about was not welcomed by the public at all and was rejected by the Thornton Action Group (TAG), (in fact they gave it a vote of no confidence), as being ‘not sound’. Despite mass housing being built, and a huge new supermarket on the way, there have been no road improvements at all: nothing on the local road junctions or the A585. The bottom line is that when it comes to planning, people dont trust WBC planners and its easy to see why; they just build houses and pocket the New Homes Bonus without dealing with the impacts on the local infrastructure (which is what the New Homes Bonus is for). Worse still, councillors just sit back and rubber stamp planning decisions, no protests or questions asked. They pay lip service and ignore. The area is becoming saturated with cars and now that Fleetwood town has gone into the Football League there will be even heavier traffic: all the more reason as to why the line must be opened to Fleetwood and NOW as the demand is there.
We await another reply to Dons letter or indeed further public comments on the issue. This issue wont go away and people in Fleetwood will be asking why they cant have a railway given that their need is so great. The role of PWRS, who have already been slated for wanting their heritage option, will also be questioned. We shall have to wait and see but as no time frame has been mentioned, or specific plans being provided, I wouldn’t expect any reopening to happen for quite a few years.
I honestly think that PWRS are the fly in the ointment (as do may others) and that has to be sorted out by a council statement saying that under no circumstances would they ever allow PWRS to take control. It would allay fears. But rest assured by the time the railway is re-opened, there will already be many more houses by then and many more cars, and thats no good at all.
I agree that reinstating the railway to Fleetwood should be the aim, however let’s not forget that the Council were the ones who have allowed building on the original route. It seems that if the rail society hadn’t latched on to the tremaining bit to Burne Naze it may well have gone altogether forever. Just where/how would access to somewhere near Fleetwood town centre be gained? As pointed out the Burn Naze area is/was industrial and in fact it was that which had kept the line open long long after the services to Fleetwood were abandoned. Personally I see that reinstatement to Fleetwood MUST embrace an agreement for containers and other freight to be transported from the docks, without that any standard passenger alone service would be unlikely to pay its way. Preston Docks railway have a shared operation which successfully allows trains off the Network to a unit on the docks whilst allowing a heritage operation so surely this is feasible here too. Yes PWRS should not be allowed free control on a forever basis but at least they have achieved a lot more than the Council so far and until the bigger FISH get their act together good luck to them.
They have “achieved” more because the council have let them do the work for them but now its PWRS who are the impediment to progress and the council cant get rid of them, or so it seems.
A rail link to Fleetwood I can’t see happening there is little money to spend from central gov and to take the line all the way there is going to be costly. I do see how thornton track can be opened NPL are keen on this but it does have to gain momentum very quickly because it the blackpool line in electrified before the thornton line is opened then gone are the changes of this happening.
Harold how many active members of TAG are they do you think? Did you know when Tesco opened at the windmill TAG was against this based on gathering opinions of local residents. How did TAG do this? They asked the six people at their usual get to gather then asked for people to comment on their web site if they opposed it or supported it, they got nine people survey in total the six at the meeting and 3 through web site. The six at the meeting where against it opening the three on the web site where for it opening yet from this TAG decided Thornton didn’t want this Tesco. You have to ask how representative is TAG of thornton?
Ho John I dont know how many members they are in TAG but I have rarely come across any criticism of them,the vote regarding the Tesco was split and it was the chairman, Paul Moon who cast it in favour of Tesco.Personally I rate TAG very very highly, they have my respect unlike WBC.
As for a Fleetwood station, God knows hwere one could be,but I agree with Derek,PWRS must not get control of that line,they are total wankers.
PWRS are doing a great job they have done wonders restoring the track! and the jobs i have attended there i have never had any thought of then being “wankers” but i guess its easy for a small minded ape like yourself to judge without having the faintest idea of there goals.
OLE/DC track track will require millions to for it to be running at a network rail standard and the track itself up the line would need work which adds more cost wheres as if it was to become a heritage line it would attract rail enthusiasts that would travel from distances around the Uk which would in turn cause them to spend money in the town…
PWRS’s goals wre well known,even such that they have been publicly slated by Don Macnaughton and ex members alike,PWRS should fuck off and restore track on a hornby train set,thats about their level and not fuck about with taxpayers money to run a wreck of a shunter up and down a siding.
no track has been restored,lol…………cleared platforms and weeds, yes they are total wankers.
Derek Squires has done it again! another letter in FWN,just wished they would put them online:
”
The great Fleetwood train robbery
The latest Wyre Council Core Strategy ‘plan’ to foist 800 houses in Fleetwood and 900 in Thornton is a planning cataclysm as the council has done nothing about road infrastructure in relation to the recent mass housing estates in Thornton/Fleetwood and the intended Sainsbury’s at Burn Hall. Our local roads and only A road have been at saturation for many years.
It’s proof that the council want houses first and foremost;much needed transport/jobs last; it should be the other way round as we all know. Worse still, the document confirms what I have always maintained, that according to their strategy, enthusiast group PWRS. WILL gain control of the railway for a steam heritage operation to Cala Gran.Part 2.4 of the infrastructure delivery plan explains this in detail. (se attached)
At present,there is NO formal plan to reopen the line to Fleetwood (only ‘potentially involves’) but by comparison, there’s certainly a plan to reopen the line to Burn Naze/Cala Gran. This explains why Councillor McCnaughton couldn’t respond to my questions in FWN regarding the role of PWRS who have no money or assets. They now stand to get that line. So, as Fleetwood has now entered the football league, we surely need an expanded A585 and or rail link as soon as possible.
With this council’s planning history, the houses will be built first, adding to our current transport woes. That means more road congestion, whilst PWRS, courtesy of the taxpayer will play steam trains to Cala Gran. Lucky PWRS! What a disgraceful shambles. This farce is by design, through a ‘core strategy’ and certainly not by an accident or an act of God. Speaking of which, God save us from Wyre ‘Planners’, aided and abetted by Wyre councillors”
Harold: I have checked online for this plan and found the following exerpt, kakes interesting reading:”
Infrastructure delivery
The Poulton and Wyre Railway Society supported by the Poulton and Wyre Trust aspire to re-open the line as a heritage railway, potentially with the prospect of running a commuter service to the Hillhouse strategic employment area at Thornton, using heritage rolling stock. This potentially involves
a railway from Poulton to Fleetwood with regular through trains running from a new Fleetwood station to Poulton and connections beyond, by a Train Operating Company
a shuttle service could also be run from a new separate platform at Poulton using diesel/electric railcars
freight operations could be sought from the larger businesses in the area which is likely to be dependent on markets and the length of haul
the provision of heritage transport with some steam hauled services at weekends, bank holidays and daily in the summer period could be considered
Thornton and Burn Naze stations being brought back into use and a new station established at Jameson Road for passengers to and from Farmer Parr’s and the Caravan Parks
consideration could be given to the future re-opening of the Poulton curve to facilitate trains running from Blackpool to Fleetwood and for the turning of steam engines, which would encourage the visits of more chartered passenger trains to Blackpool and Fleetwood.
a transport hub with a park and ride car park established at Fleetwood Station and
further park and ride at Burn Naze and Poulton stations.
A Grip 2 study will assess the feasibility of a new line and platform at Poulton Station. This is to be jointly funded by LCC and Wyre Council. “
PWRS = Paedophiles Wankers Retards Society
Time flies by when you’re the driver of a train……..steaming into Fleetwood with a cargo of cocaine
lol lol nice one TT
I get a -2 rating for a bit of a tongue-in-cheek comment – the trainspotting anoraks must be out
Under bridges over bridges to our destination!
Just had a shit day in the office, could do with a bit of Half-man half-biscuit.
I hate Nerys Hughes!!!!
Oh Harold I am confused – are you in favour of this scheme or not? I thought you were but now you have just called PWRS a load of paedophiles so I am not so sure now
Hi Jimmy I like everyone I speak to, am in favour of a commercial passenger venture , NOT the heritage lets play trains shite (at the taxpayers expense) advocated by those pwrs anorak twats who seem to be controlling Don macnaughton, a councillor who has gone down in my estimation given the childish drivel he has been writing the press recently.He no longer enjoys my respect either.Its time for an anti pwrs society and if they get their way thats what will happen.Reading this you anorak cunts? Good!
So who should be running this venture? and do you think it could be commercially viable without the ‘heritage’ input?
It should be done by a proper rail company like any other railway and NOT Pwrs who have only removed weeds.The heritage should be secondary, it seems its gonna be the other way round though.
Just been shown a local magazine which states that the railway has changed status from “disused” to “closed”
Elton John bollocks…..
Yes i said it.
Lets have a quick history lesson.
1 open top tram!
1 closed open air swimming baths
1 purpose built indoor Water-world
1 indoor waxworks
1 indoor Winter Gardens
1 indoor Tower Complex
1 failed outdoor volleyball pitch
1 failed designated “clean” beach area complete with deckchairs
Red Arrows cancelled
Lift to the tower top cancelled
Firework championships cancelled
illuminations blown down
Need i go on.
When did Blackpool’s weather change to even consider such a stupid idea / event! Have the council recruited some 18yr old from Spain?
A 100 years of history will tell you that outdoor events do not work and that’s why everything has been built indoors.
If the council want to put on some sort of concert, then for fucks sake use the football ground.
Can i have a 30k salary and a job in tourism!
PNE,
Tha fact that you have a grasp on reality unfortunately means you do not meet the recruitment requirements of the tourism department!
NHS safe in the torys hands. Read the headlines
Headline: NHS senior management in ‘couldn’t find their arses with both hands and a map’ scandal! Shock! Horror!
Oh its a management issue. Strange this issue didn’t happen under the old government.
The biggest problem with the tranway project is the fact that the council has been paying a consultant £600.00 a day for the last 4 years. This guy has been employed by the council to fly around eroupe first class and to buy trams for Blackppol yet he has no background in trams – Blackburn and Donnelon have allowed him to drive this project. How was his services procured? It has cost us taxpayers hundreds of thousands of pounds of inept and not fit for purpose trams yet Blackburn has said nothing. Donnellon of course will say nothing, because he has not a clue!
Come on Blackburn get a grip!
whats his name, any details please?
What has happened to Philtheone? No new topics for over a month – most unusual
I was thinking the same thing, and no recent comments from the man himself. Are you ok Phil ? Please let us know – you have’nt been gagged have you !!
me too. have been checking in a couple of times a week to no avail. Perhaps he has been converted to the party line and has nothing to complain about now. Glad you have mentioned it
Hey Phil all ok mate? been on holiday?
Phil sadly has passed awayto the far left he now realizes that the far right are totally wrong he is worried that his housing benefit will be stopped and he will be thrown onto the streets after all 2 billion is a lot of money not as much as the 7 billion from tax avoidance but those millionaires need the money.,I bet all those under 25 who will be homeless will be greatful for protecting the rich and also ringfencing the development money for other countries. Dont you just love the Tory’s
Phil could be away with the fairies, and Kate
)
I did notice someone posting in the Gasjet this week under the name of Filltheone. I wonder who that was….
Not me!
I didn’t think so from the comments
Glad to hear from you Phil and hope everything is OK 